Curial Activity Requirement Amendment

[Tom Paine]

Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic Patricianship however, but they do allow for nomination. In addition to those contributions, the member must have at least one month’s experience as a Citizen and have no active warnings at the time of the election. Patricians are expected to contribute to the developing the site. Involvement in the Curia is part of that.

First section of the Patrician section of the Member Ranks and Rights section of the Syntagma. I propose it should be amended to the following:

Patricianship is awarded by the Consilium de Civitate for significant contribution to TWC (Appendix A). None of these contributions provide automatic Patricianship however, but they do allow for nomination. In addition to those contributions, the member must have at least one month’s experience as a Citizen and have no active warnings at the time of the election. Patricians are expected to contribute to the developing the site. Involvement in the Curia is part of that.

This is on the basis that it seems illogical to force activity in the Curia given that the Patrician rank is a reward visible to all for outstanding contribution, not neccessarily in the Lower House.

Supporters: halie satanus; Kageshuma; Rolanbek.

[Sétanta]

Well you do want to encourage Patricians to contribute to the Curia. If contributing to the Curia is not helping developing the site, then there isn't much point in having it. I would leave it in, just because its encouraging Patricians to contribute, without forcing them too.

[imb39]

But leaving it in there forces Curial involvement. Whilst it is desirable, should it mandatory (almost)?

[Sétanta]

But leaving it in there forces Curial involvement. Whilst it is desirable, should it mandatory (almost)?

I read it as meaning that Patricians are expected to contribute to the site and influence its development. Contributing to the Curia is but one method of doing that, but not mandatory.

[Lord Rahl]

Without forcing them to...that depends on who you ask.

[Tom Paine]

The way I and others (such as Professor420) have read it is that it mandates and requires Curial involvement; and the fact is, I don't think that's a good idea. Continued contribution to the site fine, but do we want the Patrician rank to force politics on those who do not want to politic? How else can we reward them if they are civitates?

[gigagaia]

The way I and others (such as Professor420) have read it is that it mandates and requires Curial involvement; and the fact is, I don't think that's a good idea. Continued contribution to the site fine, but do we want the Patrician rank to force politics on those who do not want to politic? How else can we reward them if they are civitates?

Just a note. Patricianship isn't a reward per se. It's a responsibility to contribute to the development of TWC by active involvement in the curia.
Ranks like Opifex and Senatorii are rewards...

[Tom Paine]

So modders are rewardable for outstanding contributions but civitates who spend all their time in the TD are not? Patricianship is, like civitatehood or Artifexhood, a reward, to all intents and purposes.

[Spiff]

Expected is not the same as required in my opinion, but i see no reason to have the the line in anyway.

The Curia isnt the CdeC after all, there should be no requirement to take part

[General Sun]

What's under discussion here is the role of the curia. Is the curia this silly thing that nobody cares about and ultimately has no powers, or do you want it to be a true governing body as it was meant to be? If it is the latter, then activity is necessary. If the former, then *shrugs.

[Tom Paine]

What's under discussion here is the role of the curia. Is the curia this silly thing that nobody cares about and ultimately has no powers, or do you want it to be a true governing body as it was meant to be? If it is the latter, then activity is necessary. If the former, then *shrugs.

That's not neccessarily true. Forcing people to involve themselves in politics is negative, rather than not doing so; it means people who would rather be left to not involve themselves in the Curia must do so, and this is not the best method of making the Curia strong. I wuold say that was allowing choice to become involved or otherwise to those able to involve themselves. I would actually invert your statement; if involvement is neccessary, the Curia becomes silly.

Could people who agree with the Bill state whether they are willing to legally support it or not please?

[Lord Rahl]

So, if we have someone who is an excellent member and become a Civitate but they don't want to involve themselves in TWC politics, we can't let them become a Patrician just because of that? Why?

I certainly think that the politics here gets too complicated and many times I don't want to get involved in it. I don't think we should make Curial involvement a huge factor for Patricians. It just doesn't make sense. We have some of the most excellent members of this site who are Civitates and below my rank and basically the only reason why I am of a higher rank is because I vote and involve myself in the Curia. The Patrician rank allows you to post in the Curia and also be able to patronize. Should we also make it mandatory for the Patricians to patronize?

[Publius]

We are squabbling over ranks that are vaguely defined as is. Currently I'm of the opinion that we don't need more legislation of these ranks, but rather to revisit the very meaning and intent of each rank and map them out concretely. If we don't, we're just building a fragile house of cards that is bound to come crashing down sometime soon.

[Tom Paine]

Patrician is hardly vaguely defined; I would say it is perfectly well defined but part of that definition is either wrong or very much open to the wrong interpretation and thus should be excised.

[General Sun]

Then what we're really arguing for here is the definition of patrician. If the Staff is the executive body, and the cdec is the judicial, then surely the curia is the legislative body? If you think politics here is too complicated, then there's no need for you to participate. It seems as if the problem here is that you want the benefits of being a patrician, but don't want to deal with the politics.

A compromise proposal might be to give the right to patronize to civitates in good standing, and then those non-participating patricians won't lose much.

Edit: Ahhh Publius beat me to it.

[Halie Satanus]

I support this amendment, Tgs is right, the reformation gave an impression that Curial activity is a requirement of the patrician rank, while i don't think that was really the intent that is the way it seems.

A compromise proposal might be to give the right to patronize to civitates in good standing, and then those non-participating patricians won't lose much.

Already been done and voted on. you umm, even voted yourself.

[Tom Paine]

But the thing is, Patrician is a rank which shows continued and outstanding contribution to the site, in a specific manner no other does; it is a reward, and yes, it comes with responsibilities, but why is one of those politics? Should I leave the Curia totally, why should I forfit the right to at a later date re-enter it? Why should I forfit the right to have the Patrician rank? The Patrician rank it not just about politics, or the Curia will be in a dire state, when we force participation on people deserving of the rank but who do not wish to patricipate in the Curia.

[gigagaia]

But the thing is, Patrician is a rank which shows continued and outstanding contribution to the site, in a specific manner no other does; it is a reward, and yes, it comes with responsibilities, but why is one of those politics? Should I leave the Curia totally, why should I forfit the right to at a later date re-enter it? Why should I forfit the right to have the Patrician rank? The Patrician rank it not just about politics, or the Curia will be in a dire state, when we force participation on people deserving of the rank but who do not wish to patricipate in the Curia.

If patricianship's sole granted right is political activity (allowed to post in the curia), then why would someone who doesn't want to participiate in politics accept it in the first place?

Also, are you of the mind that the curia should be made into somewhere which is important and makes decisions that affect the direction of TWC?

Personally, I would support this ammendment if it didn't signal a fundamental problem in how we view the curia. General Sun has already said quite a bit, but as long as we view it as a reward and something to post in at our leisure, then the chances of the curia actually doing something of relevance is relatively small.
If the Curia is a place of power and ability, its participants must not be inactive members. Just as we would expect tribunous to be doing what is expected of them, so too must we expect patricians to.

[Tom Paine]

If patricianship's sole granted right is political activity (allowed to post in the curia), then why would someone who doesn't want to participiate in politics accept it in the first place?

That's the sole right, but its not all the rank conveys; for a start it conveys a sense of a achievement. Rights are not all that comes with any rank; not all civitates take part in or even look at the Symposium.

[gigagaia]

That's the sole right, but its not all the rank conveys; for a start it conveys a sense of a achievement. Rights are not all that comes with any rank; not all civitates take part in or even look at the Symposium.

It's not so much of a right as a repsonsibility. The problem is that we are still looking upon the Patrician rank as one of an award, which it shouldn't be. And yet the reason why Hex came down, changed the structures of power and limited the curia to Patricians only, was because we had it in our heads that it was our right to post in the curia, and not that posting in the curia was an important duty. The rank of Patricianship is not a reward, it is an earned place to have a say in the political development of TWC. If we continue to view it as simply a right which we can excersize freely at will or not if we so choose, we have the same fundamental problem that existed before the reforms, only a smaller pool of participants. The goal is to make people in the curia take it seriously.