War Dogs and a general unit question

[Omen]

Which factions obtain War Dogs as part of their core unit set and how are they unlocked?

Also is there somewhere I can find full rosters for each faction? I've tried just looking at what they get in custom battles and that seems to give you some idea, but trying to find a full unit roster for core units for each faction is something I can't seem to do. The one list I find on the Wiki seems to include all AoR and Auxilliary units which makes it hard at a glance to know what that factions core is, and since the in game encyclopedia is no help you can't check buildings without already having them built.

Any help is appreciated!

[FlashHeart07]

I believe that you are only able to get wardogs through the AOR system though I can be wrong. If you want a full faction list you can try and look for the faction preview threads. Custom battles should for all but Rome which has too many units show the full unit list.
Im currently on my phone so if noone has given you a better answer later today I will try and look for something that will be of further help.

[Ygraine]

Epirus has Molossian dogs from the start (unlocked by settlement center iirc). Also Avernii got some nice wardogs! If I recall correctly, you can also hire AoR mountain dogs around Cappadocia/Galatia/Pontus.

Dogs for the win!

[geala]

You don't need to choose a certain faction to get wardogs because they are mainly AOR units. Which is nice. You get Molossian dogs in Macedon f.e. with the tier 3 (or even 2? don't know)small town center. I could also recruit dogs in the Cisalpina.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Molossian hounds are in Apollonia (maybe Larissa but I've never tried) at tier three town building.

You can get standard war dogs in many places, for example in both Rome and Magna Graceia with the auxiliary barracks.

You can get Roman war dogs in cisalpania with either main city chain or auxiliary barracks (Roman war dogs not in Rome, always bugged me but whatever I guess).

Mountain hounds in Galatia et Cappadocia (I assume at tier 3 village like the mollosian hounds as they have the exact same stats).

The arverni get a hound unit as well, though I don't know how they are recruited, and Garmataia also has a special hound unit you get from the town center.

The Mollosian and Mountain hounds have the best stats of all dogs, the other ones almost indistinguishable or worse than standard war dogs. The only difference between roman war dogs and war dogs is slightly more morale and I believe 5 armor.

[geala]

You get Molossians also from Larissa, I know because I can recruit them but Apollonia is owned by the pesky Romans.

[Alexandre Lange]

Something I posted at [Feedback] Impressions, Critiques and Requests for 1.0 thread that I think worth to mention:

Molossian Dogs: just broken. I mean: FOR REAL! Epirus campaign, a half stack with 2 Molossian Dogs (now they have 80 men + 76 dogs each) stationed near the Athens border. Athens send an agent: sucess, my army can't move. Athens place a full stack near my army. Sparta came with another stack and attack me. Balance of forces: all red (hoplites are more then half of each stack). Ok: lets watch my doom and cause all the losses I could. I deploy all my army at the rear corner of the map, except for 4 slingers and the 2 molossian dogs. Battle starts, I advance the slingers and the dogs as fast as they can run. When at reach, I release the dogs, let the slingers shot two volleys and withdraw. Half way from my troops (at the rear of the map), more two slingers volley. Then withdraw again. At this point, molossian dogs (now comming from behind the enemies lines) have already routed at least 2 or 3 units each, and have more then 500 kills each. None dog lost. Enemies reach me with half their forces, all tired, and all the dogs yet at their necks. Long history short: I won, with less then 500 losses. Battle results: Molossian Dogs units with more then 1500 kills each, both now silver 2 (first battle). Alone, they have killed the equivalent of more then 7 full units each. But units rout with around 2/3 men lost, right? So, the dogs disbanded 10-11 units each. My army just watched.

I have reduced dog units to 20 men + 18 dogs each. Still a lot of kills, but better suited for the unit price. Important to note that rarely any dog dies and, if some died, as long you keep the handlers safe, you get the unit at full strenght for the nex battle.

[Ygraine]

Something I posted at [Feedback] Impressions, Critiques and Requests for 1.0 thread that I think worth to mention:


I have reduced dog units to 20 men + 18 dogs each. Still a lot of kills, but better suited for the unit price. Important to note that rarely any dog dies and, if some died, as long you keep the handlers safe, you get the unit at full strenght for the nex battle.

The problem aren't the dogs themselves, it's how the AI is unable to react to them if they attack in the rear or the flank. Try charging stationary Hoplites (or any other heavy infantry) from the front with dogs, they will destroy the hounds like they're puppies. If cavalry can destroy units from behind, why shouldn't dogs be able to?

[Ivan_Moscavich]

The problem aren't the dogs themselves, it's how the AI is unable to react to them if they attack in the rear or the flank. Try charging stationary Hoplites (or any other heavy infantry) from the front with dogs, they will destroy the hounds like they're puppies. If cavalry can destroy units from behind, why shouldn't dogs be able to?

This is pretty much my reasoning for accepting how dogs perform as well.

My war dog units almost always get 500-700 kills, mostly against skirmisher/ranged units and fleeing troops. This is the same amount my cavalry manage in the same situation.

If you use dogs frontally against heavy infantry, just like cavalry they will get decimated. But letting them loose against light units and on the flank and rear of other units nets them massive kill counts.

[HarkonRules]

Waw, that's crazy. I never even tried Dogs, they always seemed like an odd unit to use in Total War. How are the Italian Dogs? (War Dogs / Canne Bellici)

[FlashHeart07]

But they still with no doubt get too many kills. Problem is that cav attacking inf will eventually lose while dogs wont. I have had battles like Alexandra where I was outnumbered but won because of my dogs. They routed several phalanxes and hoplites and they were even able to decimate entire units by pursuing them to the edge of the map and still be able to return and rout the rest of the enemy. Might try to reduce them aswell for better results

[GatoVolador]

But they still with no doubt get too many kills. Problem is that cav attacking inf will eventually lose while dogs wont. I have had battles like Alexandra where I was outnumbered but won because of my dogs. They routed several phalanxes and hoplites and they were even able to decimate entire units by pursuing them to the edge of the map and still be able to return and rout the rest of the enemy. Might try to reduce them aswell for better results

This was actually quite surprising for me, I didn´t knew that, so I was quite shocked in my first 1.0 campaign (Pontus) with the performance of my Mountain dogs.
I had used them in a defensive siege battle, and wasn´t impressed. But I already went to another region, and had no good cav to substitute them, so I kept them. Oh boy... I got attacked by one and a half stack of Pergamon in an open field battle. I wanted to rout a skirmisher cav harrasing my left flank, so I sent the dogs after them and forgat about them. The battle wasn´t going so well, I was severely outnumbered, and some tactical errors made me los quite a bit of my cav.
To make a long story short, my left flank was a mess, and suddenly, the dogs came back! They had chasen the skirmisher cav away, lost all the dog handlers in the process, but were still around and bitting pergammon in the ass. They singlehandlely routed the whole right flank of pergamon, after I thought they were gone :O

Now onto the balancing aspect. I´m not sure how they work, but could it be that the dogs themselves don´t get any penalty from exhaustion? They chased and engaged that light cav to the end of the world, came back running, foght and runned down some more. They never slowed down...

[Ivan_Moscavich]

You could always do what I did, for the longest time I actually stopped using dogs because of how op they could be when used properly. Now I just limit myself to one unit of dogs per legion. Generally I release them to break up skirmisher or slinger/archers as my main line approaches.

They certainly get a lot of kills, but they are occupied for most of the battle killing the groups of ranged units as they flee the map.

I don't think they're necessarily OP, it's just when used well they can give devastating results. But that's true of most units.

Even a unit of levy javelinmen can get 300 or more kills if left unmolested on the rear of an infantry formation.

Before they were definitely op, with what having their AP that made them devastate heavy infantry from the front, then they were nerfed to almost uselessness. Now they have a good stat situation, and are effective in a niche while not being better than standard heavy infantry as frontal shock troops.

[geala]

I prefer to use house rules to make the game more difficult. For example all my better units have sometimes painful campaign caps. I only use dogs in maximum three of my armies, one unit per army and I don't use them until the very end of the battle when the enemy line wavers considerably. Using them against pesky missile units is however a tempting cheat when I think about it because I often have very few cavalry in my armies. Hmmm, perhaps lowering the number of dogs is a way to go.

[Ygraine]

Don't forget that dogs are a real RNG-unit, they can chase skirmishers or cav across a whole map - while the battle is being decided elsewhere. Sometimes they also just stand still and bark for a few minutes at an enemy until that unit moves.

What I generally love about them is that you can't control them any more once released - and thus I think they are just fine in terms of balance since they can either do very well or barely anything! (Also their price is very adequate, 800 for molossian dogs for instance. You can get a hoplite unit for that.)

[FlashHeart07]

But a single Hoplite unit doesnt get +500 kills and is able to chase units all over the map without getting tired. Ofc one can make house rules and it is up to the player if they want to use the dogs like this but perhaps it would be better to find a better balance for them in game.

[Ygraine]

But a single Hoplite unit doesnt get +500 kills and is able to chase units all over the map without getting tired. Ofc one can make house rules and it is up to the player if they want to use the dogs like this but perhaps it would be better to find a better balance for them in game.

You're right. But dogs are nearly useless frontally, while hoplites are one of the strongest (perhaps only pikes are better) from the front and they also slaughter dogs frontally. Point is that every unit has its strength and weakness. I'd rather have a unit of hoplites than a dog unit, only use dog units as support and few in numbers since they will often run across the other side of the map chasing some random skirmisher while I'm fighting a large battle in the middle - only returning and mopping up when I've already won.

[Omen]

Just wanted to say thankyou for the information. Especially that dogs are tied to level 3 town centers. I had trouble finding that information elsewhere.

I've also noticed that dogs seem to get very high numbers of kills because units don't seem to react to them. Especially if you can make the AI give their units move or charge orders as I assume this is like trying to pull one unit through another anywhere else.