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  1. #1

    Default An Idea for the Late Game

    I think we all notice that the late game of Rome 2 (like many TW games before it) is often lacking. Campaigns take on a fairly predictable (though still fun) rhythm: struggle to survive in the early game, have some nice, exciting wars in the mid-game, and then steamroll everyone in the late game. Whether it is a lack of large AI empires to fight or a lack of well-equipped enemy armies serving even a large empire, AI empires never seem to be able to put up much of a fight once we start to unlock our best troops and develop an economy that can sustain even a few of them among assorted levies an mid-tier units.

    I have seen many attempts to remedy this: giving bonuses to historically large empires to try and force tough enemies to exist in the late game, make civil wars more extreme or prevalent to slow the player down, mess with the player's PO upon conquest, etc.

    Often these fixes either do not work (even when I used to play with some "large AI empires" mods Rome was never a threat) or add disproportionate difficulty to the early or middle game while still making the late-game a walk in the park. Also, though the politics mechanic is much improved from R2's launch, it is still clunky and unpredictable (if only the internal politics model from Attila could be patched in!) so I hate to rely on the somewhat random and annoying civil war mechanic to limit the player.

    The problem, as I see it, is this: the player is generally much better at managing his/her empire on a macro level than the AI is. The only way we can really work around this is to give the AI bonuses to food, PO, income, and give the player handicaps as she/he progresses. I think the current system works excellently at providing an initial challenge to the player and making the player carefully plan province, agent, and even general/admiral specializations to avoid PO, cultural, diplomatic, and empire maintenance disasters.

    To save, the late game, I would suggest the following (if it is even possible): instead of an across-the-board constant increase to AI income bonuses (like what change with campaign difficulty) give the AI a per-city income bonus that increases with the player's imperium level. That way, as the player expands, her enemies will become proportionally more powerful. Furthermore, the more cities an enemy has, the bigger bonus the AI would get, which may help AI empire develop as they can more easily snowball and absorb each other. If possible we could make this bonus bigger for certain factions (like Carthage, Rome, Makedon, etc.) to help ensure that those factions become big and fun to fight. To add more challenge we could also add to the penalties that effect the player, but I want the late game to feel like a series of boss fights (maybe with the occasional civil war) in which you use all of your powers to crush a formidable foe, and simply hamstringing the player, I think, removes a lot of the sense of progression and accomplishment from the campaign.

    Now I have three questions for you, DeI community:
    1. Does this sound like a remotely good idea?
    2. Is this possible to mod?
    3. Any suggestions as to where I might look to mod this or how to do it? I have only recently started making very basic mods, and still get a bit lost in all the pack files.

    Thanks for your feedback!

  2. #2

    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    Sounds good to me, actually, pretty smart idea, though I have no clue if it's possible.

  3. #3

    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    I definitely like the idea.

    Handicapping the player with public order and other penalties in a game all about having a big empire always struck me as incredibly stupid and counter productive.

    Challenge should come from the enemy capabilities, not arbitrary bindings against the player.

  4. #4

    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    I think this is worth a try at the very least. As far back as I remember in every total war game I've played there was always a point where the player get powerful enough the steam-roll every AI faction on the map. As this is the first total war game to introduce the imperium level, this idea could work quite effectively.

  5. #5
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    Even if you give the enemy more resources doesn't give it the brains to know how to allocate those resources.

    What I like about Attila's campaign is that many many people simply fail at their games 100s of turns into the game. It should be interesting to keep an eye on it and maybe one can learn something from that game. As of right now, I don't know.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  6. #6

    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    Even if you give the enemy more resources doesn't give it the brains to know how to allocate those resources.

    What I like about Attila's campaign is that many many people simply fail at their games 100s of turns into the game. It should be interesting to keep an eye on it and maybe one can learn something from that game. As of right now, I don't know.

    ~Wille
    I don't yet own Attila; I have only seen reviews and gameplay. I have not heard anyone saying that they have failed after hundreds of turns, but it would be quite interesting to see why that would happen.

    I do agree that giving the AI more resources would not necessarily increase its efficiency, but that is kind of the point: we can't increase the AI's efficiency. As has been mentioned, our options amount to giving the player more handicaps as time progresses, attempting to give the AI more bonuses as time progresses, or rely on custom scripts. I personally don't have the expertise to write scripts, and I imagine that writing scripts for enough different factions to make it interesting would be a nightmare, both for the script-writer and everyone else's loading times.

    Until we can find what makes Attila different (assuming that it is something we can change with mods at all), it stands to reason that giving the AI progressive boosts is our next best option, since we already give the player diplomatic and economic penalties. Giving the AI progressively more funds is admittedly a brute force approach. But, you know what they say about brute force: if it isn't working, it means you just aren't using enough.

    Beyond that, does anyone know how I might go about trying to mod this or if it is possible to mod?

  7. #7
    Ganossa's Avatar 최정장군
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    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    I am not sure if this is already implemented in vanilla R2 or DeI but one way Attila works is that with increased power (which can be a combination of different factors) your reputation among other factions (and within your own) decreases. There are many factions that even carry that trait to be envious of other empires. It also feels to be a very natural change throughout the campaign.

  8. #8
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    So if one could reverse the diplomatic effect that is in Rome 2? Meaning that instead of factions being nicer to you as your empire grows they will dislike you more meaning an increase in war declarations and thereby making the late game tougher.
    Though I cannot reveal anything, people should not worry that the matter of the late game being easy is not a concern of the team behind DeI.
    As for the idea of giving factions more gold based on number of settlements owned. Sounds nice but why give it to factions like Rome, Carthage and Macedon? This would just make the game the same everytime. I wouldnt mind seeing some barbaric tribe sacking Rome and becoming a major power in Europe. Ofc this shouldnt mean that Rome and/or Carthage should not at times be the big empires that we all at some point wish to see.

  9. #9

    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    I don't think chucking money at the AI will make it more dangerous unfortunately.

    A way round this might have to rely on scripting magic to generate AI armies and hostility towards the player when a certain trigger is reached. Such as the current Rome and Carthage defence scripts.

  10. #10
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: An Idea for the Late Game

    But increasing the amount of scripts would only make the game load slower. Though Im not a modder perhaps it would be best to somehow find a solution or a part of a solution that involves few scripts or none.

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