Help with Javs

[rjacko10]

Hi, I'm really struggling to know how to use javelin men without obliterating my holding line. Firing from behind my lines, or from the rear both result in massive friendly fire casualties. I've had some success with firing from the flank, but surely this cannot be the only way to use these units? (I am using experimental pack).

I understand and accept some friendly fire losses, but not this bad:
<--my pikes were spread thinly, pontic peltasts directly behind, archers behind them. Cav flanking and mopping up. I prioritised AI targets that weren't engaged. When this option was no longer available I prioritise AI targets which are at the back of a blob.

So what am I doing that's so drastically wrong? Or is it this particular unit?

Maybe I need to adjust the PFM tables myself. Is there a global setting for accuracy? If so, I will need to reduce damage too.... and then it starts getting messy.

Thanks

[KAM 2150]

I just use them before my lines and then in the second line, almost zero friendly fire. Of course do not expect that your javs will fire into own fighting troops. They are good in killing 30-50 guys per squad before melee starts and then encircle the flanks gaining additional 300-500 kills per squad.

Anyway, there will be BIG missile update for experimental pack in about 7-8 hours (yep, there is a lot of changes to do).

[Kye]

Anyway, there will be BIG missile update for experimental pack in about 7-8 hours (yep, there is a lot of changes to do).

Will it be saved game compatible?

[KAM 2150]

Sure

[Miri82]

I always use javelinmen to lure othres enemies units and or to inflictsome penalties before the clash...then i send the javelin on second line throwing javlelins to the incoming units.

When all units are in close combat i use them like light infantry....flanking...reinforcing or pursuing routing units. I dont know if in dei mechanics this may work,but i think that could work.



Edit: forgive my ortographie....im writing from a smartphone.

[KAM 2150]

Yes, for example Peltasts were not working like light skirmishers but they were rather a medium infantry, hence tasked with flanking, pursuing and storming walls

[Cambion]

Hi, I'm really struggling to know how to use javelin men without obliterating my holding line. Firing from behind my lines, or from the rear both result in massive friendly fire casualties. I've had some success with firing from the flank, but surely this cannot be the only way to use these units? (I am using experimental pack).

I understand and accept some friendly fire losses, but not this bad:
<--my pikes were spread thinly, pontic peltasts directly behind, archers behind them. Cav flanking and mopping up. I prioritised AI targets that weren't engaged. When this option was no longer available I prioritise AI targets which are at the back of a blob.

So what am I doing that's so drastically wrong? Or is it this particular unit?

Maybe I need to adjust the PFM tables myself. Is there a global setting for accuracy? If so, I will need to reduce damage too.... and then it starts getting messy.

Thanks

Depends. I never use them behind my lines, only archers. Heavy skirmishers go to the flanks with spears at their back and either go cav hunting or flank the enemy line while my infantry is engaged, than if the javs are out, charge. Light skirmishers and slingers go in front of the line and harry the advancing enemy line and more important their skirmishers, than behind my line and to the flanks to see what they can do there. Best light skirmishers are greek light peltasts and the spartan skiri-somethings. Best heavies are the germanic and gallic aux light inf, but they are not so good with their javs. Agraian axeman are a class of their own. As good as the greeks with their javs and extemely good at melee, but only lightly armored, so dont go fighting heavy inf if you cant get them from the rear, the german light aux can actually pull that of, for a while.

[Menulo]

i have the same problem with archers tbh. even while firing from the back into a huge blob op units, they always manage to score loads of friendly fire kills... i am not sure where they were trained, but not anywhere remotely military.

i think the accuracy should go way up, or perhaps give them an attack ground option like some melee units with javs have. so i can at least make sure they wont fire into my lines.

[Dakirin]

Back in 0.96 I made some extensive tests on missiles and the results were very clear: using javelins from behind my lines ~15-20% friendly fire, using behind their units ~10-15% friendly fire, using them from the flanks ~1-3% friendly fire. In my 1.0 version I still feel that those numbers might be in the same area, but I haven’t tried the experimental yet. Unless KAM made huge modifications on the area that the javelins hit, those numbers might still be there. Hope it helps.

[Velico]

Javelin units are some of my favorite in the game. I love good peltast units with cavalry support. I generally have 3-4 units depending on who's army it is. I put them on one flank (usually it's the left) with another skirmisher unit on the right (archers or slingers) and double time them up towards the enemy right at the start. For my peltasts, I keep my better quality cavalry directly behind them to support should any cavalry try to run down my peltasts. I put lesser quality cavalry to support the skirmishers on the right flank. With the peltasts, I never target other skirmishers, I use the archers/slingers for that, and work my way around to hit the heavily armored units. Not only does it reduce their numbers before the lines meet, but a lot of the time I can lure them away from the rest of their army. This is why I like good peltast units, because they can engage for a short period, and I have the good cavalry smash them from behind. It's a great way to single out high quality units and take them out of the fight early. I use the light/med cavalry to harass their skirmishers, and charge when they're in the clear. If they're not in the clear, I rush them to make them run back all the while my right flank archer/slinger units are hitting their skirmishers. Once the lines meet, my light/med cav chase down those remaining skirmishers, and the heavy cav go wherever I need them.

I progressively draw them back towards my line, and any enemy troops that chase my skirmishers is crushed by the above explanation. My goal is to always deplete their ammunition before the melee begins, and even if they have rounds left I very rarely fire into the rear of enemies while they're engaged. A lot of the peltast units have pretty solid melee attack/def, so I send them on the outermost flank to the weakest enemy, and let my cavalry pound the harder targets.

[rjacko10]

Thanks for the feedback. There's some excellent ideas here