Germany wants Rumsfeld and others...

[JP226]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...557842,00.html

Is this some kind of joke, or are there people that really are this crazy in Germany?

[The White Knight]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...557842,00.html

Is this some kind of joke, or are there people that really are this crazy in Germany?

I think it's their right. I don't think it's funny either. And I don't understand why you call Germans crazy.

The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the U.S. has identified as the so-called "20th hijacker" and a would-be participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005, Qahtani underwent a "special interrogation plan," personally approved by Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports, Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other controversial interrogation techniques.

[leeho730]

This is due to the fact that 'German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world.'

Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of all U.S. military prisons in Iraq. Karpinski — who the lawyers say will be in Germany next week to publicly address her accusations in the case — has issued a written statement to accompany the legal filing, which says, in part: "It was clear the knowledge and responsibility [for what happened at Abu Ghraib] goes all the way to the top of the chain of command to the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ."

How are the mighty fallen!

[danzig]

This is due to the fact that 'German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world.'



How are the mighty fallen!

Why? Its not like this is going to go anywhere....our goverments despite the public comments by some are in bed with each other if this was pushed to the point of actually trying to 'arrest' Rumsfeld it would probably lead to the US pushing the entire secret rendition thing where by most 'rumors' the German goverment was well involved in.

[vopohame]

universal jurisdiction is just another form of western imperialism dictating their mores to the rest of the world.

[leeho730]

Why? Its not like this is going to go anywhere....our goverments despite the public comments by some are in bed with each other if this was pushed to the point of actually trying to 'arrest' Rumsfeld it would probably lead to the US pushing the entire secret rendition thing where by most 'rumors' the German goverment was well involved in.

True, article stated that there was a similar lawsiut in 2004, which was abandoned shortly after angry US response.

But in this case, lawsuit is being carried out after Rumsfeld's resignation (which removes legal immunity), so it is a bit more interesting than the last case.

Yes, I agree, US should reveal all the details regarding secret prisons in Germany, so that those of US and German government officials who were involved in the scheme are judged accordingly.

[Ahiga]

This is due to the fact that 'German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world.'



How are the mighty fallen!

The Germans are doing this?

Will the Muslims decide that God has given them the right to rule in favor of the Scientific community against Intelligent design in schools? I kid.

[ZaPPPa]

The US broke the Geneva Conventions and that is a serious matter. This has nothing to do with the Germans being crazy, this is a strong warning to the US to show them how weak the US has gotten in the last couple of years.

[danzig]

The US broke the Geneva Conventions and that is a serious matter. This has nothing to do with the Germans being crazy, this is a strong warning to the US to show them how weak the US has gotten in the last couple of years.

A CLAIM by some nothing more, regardless the US has as a developed western nation has its own working justice system so wouldnt be shocking to see it dismissed and told to take the complaint thru US system...anything more by Germany would probably risk relations between the two some neither wants.

Yes, I agree, US should reveal all the details regarding secret prisons in Germany, so that those of US and German government officials who were involved in the scheme are judged accordingly.

Id agree too but we both know realistically that simply isnt going to happen due to the possibly implication and possibly spill over into other European nations that allegedly involved in it thus defeating the whole good cop/bad cop thing and making it truly appear as the West vs East. For a sheer safety issue (since Europe is more vulnerable to terrorism due simply to location) you'd be hard pressed to find a European politican willing to open that pandora's box...or atleast a sane one.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

My previous post has failed to apear, so I'll make this one much shorter, and to the point.


You want him? Show us your authority and try and take him.

You'll recieve a warm welcome, that is if you consider the heat from a few thousand smoking gunbarrels to be warmth.

[leeho730]

My previous post has failed to apear, so I'll make this one much shorter, and to the point.


You want him? Show us your authority and try and take him.

You'll recieve a warm welcome, that is if you consider the heat from a few thousand smoking gunbarrels to be warmth.

I worry that an attitude like this may worsen anti-US sentiment here...

[Rapax]

You want him? Show us your authority and try and take him.

You'll recieve a warm welcome, that is if you consider the heat from a few thousand smoking gunbarrels to be warmth.

Just wow. Even in a valid thread with a serious topic you don't fail to leave some ridiculous immature "america kicks ass" comment.



What is actually funny is that people in the land where anyone can sue anyone for anything find it crazy to sue over prison abuse.

I worry that an attitude like this may worsen anti-US sentiment here...

Ha, you think he cares? He's the posterboy for that on here.

[MaximiIian]

What is actually funny is that people in the land where anyone can sue anyone for anything find it crazy to sue over prison abuse.

It's not so much the why they're trying to sue Rumsfeld, it's more of that sovereign nation "A" (Germany) is making claims to have judicial authority over sovereign nation "B" (US) by trying to sue a citizen of nation "B" over something occuring within nation "B's" territory that in no way, shape, or form, concerns nation "A".

[Rapax]

It's not so much the why they're trying to sue Rumsfeld, it's more of that sovereign nation "A" (Germany) is making claims to have judicial authority over sovereign nation "B" (US) by trying to sue a citizen of nation "B" over something occuring within nation "B's" territory that in no way, shape, or form, concerns nation "A".

Uhm no. It's not like the german government is pursueing any lawsuit, it's just that this lawsuit has been filed in germany due to the reasons given in the article. Hence "does not concern them" is irrelevant when it is only a tool used by those who are very much concerned by it. The US doesn't even recognize the international court in the Hague, so who cares.

[Tom Paine]

It's not so much the why they're trying to sue Rumsfeld, it's more of that sovereign nation "A" (Germany) is making claims to have judicial authority over sovereign nation "B" (US) by trying to sue a citizen of nation "B" over something occuring within nation "B's" territory that in no way, shape, or form, concerns nation "A".

And now interchange nations A and B, and Germany with (say) the UK, and you'll see what we get annoyed about... maybe the UK should have a shot at Rumsfeld, its not like there were no extraordinary renditions from the UK! Go the CPS! Somehow I don't think it'd come off.

[Erik]

It's not so much the why they're trying to sue Rumsfeld, it's more of that sovereign nation "A" (Germany) is making claims to have judicial authority over sovereign nation "B" (US) by trying to sue a citizen of nation "B" over something occuring within nation "B's" territory that in no way, shape, or form, concerns nation "A".

And the USA is so respectful of the sovereignty of other countries

[LSJ]

Haha, "what will Germany do? Invade?"
Okay, what could the US do? Invade?
Just as rediculous. I seriously doubt either nation would use military measures.
The consequences would majorly outweigh the "benefits", if any.

I don't see the problem escalating, especially with the German gov't co operating with the CIA.
We condemn your men's actions but we harbour them?

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Well, perhaps the possiblity that I don't care never crossed your mind.

What will the Germans do? Invade? They certainly don't have the capability. I suppose they'll have to take a lesson from the French and begin to show their displeasure by grumbeling to each other in the privacey of their country about how barbaric we are.

As to Geneva, unless someone has the strength to back it up, there is realy no reason to demand anything.

Like Robin Williams said about British Police in comparison to American police.

"American Police say 'stop or I'll shoot' while British police say 'Stop! or I'll say stop again!'"

Troll removed-Garb.

not @ Rapax

This idea is about as stupid as UN sending people to keep a watch on our elections, it's an insult, and it's pathetic.

[Fianóglach]

"American Police say 'stop or I'll shoot' while British police say 'Stop! or I'll say stop again!'"

@ Rapax, for someone who's supposidly in the German military, you spend a LOT of time online. Shouldn't you be gaurding your borders from the.....oh, nevermind.

Robin Williams is a fanny. British Police don't say that, they chase you down and ****ing crack your skull, because unlike American Police, British Police are capable of chasing people down without running them over in a pickup truck. And I don't like the bashing of a fellow soldier, no matter what country he serves.

[leeho730]

@ Rapax, for someone who's supposidly in the German military, you spend a LOT of time online. Shouldn't you be gaurding your borders from the.....oh, nevermind.

I'm in the military and I spend a fair amount of time online. It's 8-5 job for us and we usually do not work in the weekend.

I've got a computer in my barrack room which is hooked to online. Some people live in inexpensive army rent houses, or their rent or mortgage subsided by the army if they choose to live outside army areas.

EDIT: Not sure about working conditions in German army but it would be similar if not better.