High Elves Graphic Improvment [WIP Standby]

[ReV VAdAUL]

Arthalion I'm sorry to hear you won't be able to release those excellent models. It is always sad when modders get crazy possessive of work that only exists because others were more flexible with their own work. Nonetheless you are clearly a very talented modder and I look forward to seeing what you create for Attila.

[Pyrosh]

Well, seeing that all the people is giving his opinion, I´m going to do the same.
To be honest I like this mod, I would change some things but I have to say that the creator has been really respectfull with the original work and he has included really interesting things, but although the final work looks good, they are like a kind of Frankenstein, one part from here, other part from there... it´s a collage, I like that pople say that the models are incredible...mates, the models were made before, he hasn´t made the models or the skiins, he only has combined them (with good style IMO), nothing more.
I have seen in the words of LL a lot of respect about these elven units, a respect that a lot of people here aren´t having with him. Remember that LL is one of the modders that has contributed in most high level to this mod and with a quality level simmilar to KK or DG. And remember that he has spent too much time than Arthalion in create his units. Well, you can´t spend a month in make one unit and later one guy comes and in two days improve your work and said that has created something new.
To be honest, for me the credits aren´t enough, with four simple words you can´t represent the time you have spent in design the unit, make the model, make the uvmaps, create the textures, see that all looks as perfect as possible, put the unit ingame, correct the unit to look better ingame, fix the bugs you hadn´t seen before... As you can see is really hard, and in my personal experience, one unit usually takes me three weeks, and I know that for LL is the same. We don´t earn money with this but we work like if we were working for an enterprise, so the only thing we have are our rights, cause our rights represent our job, our spent hours, our brainstorming...
You are being very hard with a guy has spent a lot of his time in making units for your entertainment. You only see the unit, you don´t see the effort that exist behind it, so be a bit more respectfull, all of us have our opinion, but is really easy be critic with something you don´t understand.
So be a bit respectfull with his decision because he has been very respectfull with Arathion.

[Mr.Jox]

but is really easy be critic with something you don´t understand.

You shouldn't say this, some people will eat you for that!

[Taro_M]

Pyrosh, dont take away from Arthalion either, even a tasteful reskin along with combining stuff still takes a lot of work. You think my Gondor units are any different? Even with a lot of existing materials it takes a long time to create them, but I do not mind anyone using them (including you) no matter the amount of work I put into them. I just learned one thing: if someone does take your work and create his own derivative work (like you did with your Gondor units). then dont go into that person's thread in order to comment on the changes he has made, you will be always biased toward your original work, but thats natural.

Credits are not enough? Then what else? This modding thing is strictly non-profit and for the most part people create this things because they can and they want give something to the community. LL's models are already included in the official Third Age mod release what else should be given to a modder?

Personally I like to type my name into the search function on TWC and see where it takes me. Seeing people using my work to fuel their efforts does make me feel like I acomplished something.

I do respect his rights and his decision, but it dosent mean I have to agree with it.

[Pyrosh]

hahahaha I know, well it´s not a generic answer, Bazz or Taro for example are really good modders and they know perfectly the prize of make a unit more or less from scratch. But a lot of people here are critizing something that they haven´t lived. I started using Taro staff and I won´t never find words to expres my grattitude to him for his help or to Bazz for helping me when I started.

[Louis Lux]

I was following the project for creating a new and improved roster for the HE in TATW years ago. Yes, it was started by LL and he did contribute to it but AFAIR the project was the collaboration of multiple modders and not just LL. A Chinese(?) modder called "Lu Bu" was responsible for some of the best parts of that project, I definitely remember that those "better" faces found on the Lindon Longspears, Rangers and the Eldarinwe units were his work for example. Some of the skins were done by bilwit along with LL. It's a real shame that all these other people who contributed to this project let the guy who has got a rather "weird" (trying REALLY hard to not be insulting here) attitude towards "intellectual property" and "permissions" be the one solely responsible for handing out the usage rights of these models & textures.

Yes modding is a collaborative enterprise, but I did start the project and saw it through. The point at hand here are the textures, I made roughly 80% of the textures from scratch which probably took me 200 to 300 hours to make, not counting setting up the units, uv mapping, bone weighting etc... Drawing is a big part of my life, the biggest, and it is my prerogative to assure the integrity of all my drawings, which is what I am doing. You may not understand it but I ask everyone to at least respect it.

Well, seeing that all the people is giving his opinion, I´m going to do the same.
To be honest I like this mod, I would change some things but I have to say that the creator has been really respectful with the original work and he has included really interesting things, but although the final work looks good, they are like a kind of Frankenstein, one part from here, other part from there... it´s a collage, I like that people say that the models are incredible...mates, the models were made before, he hasn´t made the models or the skins, he only has combined them (with good style IMO), nothing more.
I have seen in the words of LL a lot of respect about these elven units, a respect that a lot of people here aren´t having with him. Remember that LL is one of the modders that has contributed in most high level to this mod and with a quality level similar to KK or DG. And remember that he has spent too much time than Arthalion in create his units. Well, you can´t spend a month in make one unit and later one guy comes and in two days improve your work and said that has created something new.
To be honest, for me the credits aren´t enough, with four simple words you can´t represent the time you have spent in design the unit, make the model, make the uvmaps, create the textures, see that all looks as perfect as possible, put the unit ingame, correct the unit to look better ingame, fix the bugs you hadn´t seen before... As you can see is really hard, and in my personal experience, one unit usually takes me three weeks, and I know that for LL is the same. We don´t earn money with this but we work like if we were working for an enterprise, so the only thing we have are our rights, cause our rights represent our job, our spent hours, our brainstorming...
You are being very hard with a guy has spent a lot of his time in making units for your entertainment. You only see the unit, you don´t see the effort that exist behind it, so be a bit more respectfull, all of us have our opinion, but is really easy be critic with something you don´t understand.
So be a bit respectfull with his decision because he has been very respectfull with Arathion.

Thanks for the support Pyrosh, it's greatly appreciated. I hope people can read your excellent post and come to understand and respect my position a little better.

I think it's best we all cool our heads and perhaps close this thread that has been completely derailed. If Arthalion wishes to continue this project he can consult with me to clear individual units for release.

[AnthoniusII]

The permision issue is something very complicated as a matter in TWC.
1ST We have the desire of a creator to create something.
2nd We have the desire of the creator to keep his/her creations in the essense/flavor he/she had in mind when created those creations.
3rd We have the desire of people that want to improve or modificate other people creations for a number of reasons.
In many cases there is a conflict of desires. We encounter many paradoxes that we all have to respect.
Paradox example. Some modder creates a script that makes the game better.
He/she releases that script. An other modder spots some more pottentials in that script to make it even better.
The history of modding is full of evolutions of original creations, but...I am afraid that is also full of denials.
The modding proccedure is actually a constant way of evolution of evolutions. 90% of the modders are huppy to share their knowlege and their creations.
Others though deny this matter. All have the right to their desision...Rights that we must respect. Douzens of mods stop to exist because in the past modders denied the use of their creations and the luck of such abillities from those that made the requests of use. The only solution in this case would be a 100% new Elvs models with new skins as well.
Not all modders are Rusichi/MARKA team the DONATED their work without any limmitation and gave M2TW modding a new life!

[Dutch-Balrog]

I am one of the guys who doesn't know how it is to make these units, which is the reason i accept and live with LL's decision, because i do see how much effort roughly goes into these units (I have noticed this ALOT with testing for DaC).

[Taro_M]

I see it like this: I know how much work is required to make a unit, so I like to cut corners and use stuff that already exist as a base or something. This is only possible when people let me use their models and textures. So I behave in a way I would like others to behave toward me: I let anyone to freely use my stuff as I like to use materials made available by others.

[Pyrosh]

Pyrosh, dont take away from Arthalion either, even a tasteful reskin along with combining stuff still takes a lot of work. You think my Gondor units are any different? Even with a lot of existing materials it takes a long time to create them

Mate, remember I started combining your skins and models so I know perfectly the time it takes, perhaps the one who don´t know the time that takes to make a unit from scratch, is you, so perhaps you can try to do one totally from scratch and later share your conclussions with us.

but I do not mind anyone using them (including you) no matter the amount of work I put into them.

Do you think that I tried to give you more than a name in the credits because It doesn´t matter to me your effort in your units? well, I´m one of the most respetuous guys in this forum with the work made by others (Bazz can say it to you), cause I understand perfectly the effort exist behind, and it´s because I try to give proper credits to everyone, and I know that it isn´t enough.

if someone does take your work and create his own derivative work (like you did with your Gondor units). then dont go into that person's thread in order to comment on the changes he has made, you will be always biased toward your original work, but thats natural.

Totally disagree, if anyone takes your work you must go to his thread and try to give your opinion about his work, always being respectfull and giving constructive critics.

Credits are not enough? Then what else? This modding thing is strictly non-profit and for the most part people create this things because they can and they want give something to the community. LL's models are already included in the official Third Age mod release what else should be given to a modder?

NO, aren´t enough, for one reason, a credit is a word, you can´t represent in one or two words the effort that exist behind your creation, and is not only an issue of effort, is an issue of as you value your work, as you value your time... LL had had the honour that his units have been included in the Official mod, but is not the same the official release of one of the most popular mods ever made than one submod, all of us understand this point. The problem with the modding community is that in the past it´s truth that it was non-pro, but now the people are becoming in pro, LL is a good example of this, I´m good making skiins cause I have studied photoshop and other Adobe programmes, but I´m really far away from him.

Personally I like to type my name into the search function on TWC and see where it takes me. Seeing people using my work to fuel their efforts does make me feel like I acomplished something.

I understand you perfectly, but as I said you, is not the same one unit takes one week than one that takes you one month, believe me, I have been in both sides and I can speak about my experience, and for my project, some units will be free and others not.

I do respect his rights and his decision, but it dosent mean I have to agree with it.

Obviously you can think different, but you have been a bit agressive with him, don´t you think?

This discussion is going too far, DG hasn't gave his permission to work on his units and no one has said nothing. I understand perfectly the wailings of the people, being honest I´m a bit disappointed too, but it doesn't give me rights to critic with so hard to LL.
But well if you are going to feel better I will speak with LL and see what can we do, cause is the first time I see LL doubting about a violation of his work.

[Everto]

Post Edited...

[Taro_M]

Do I say that making unit from scratch is easy or fast? All I pointed out that even making a reskin can take a long time, not to mention making something completely from scratch. Im a lazy person and I dont see a reason in reinventing the wheel over and over. That is why I prefer to use existing stuff as a base.

Lets just agree its crapton of hard work and leave it at that.

Totally disagree, if anyone takes your work you must go to his thread and try to give your opinion about his work, always being respectfull and giving constructive critics.

That was just my personal view. Like I said: I dont go around telling people how to edit my stuff as I know I will be biased toward making it like I made it in first place, but Im willing to help out in case of troubles with my stuff. Maybe its just me, but I just leave the author to do stuff his way. This is me showing respect to him and his decision on what to do with my units. I just drop by the thread to see what he came up with.

Credits and respect is all we can give to a modder here. There is simply nothing else to give here. As for going pro: so what? Turambar was a pro that dropped here between his jobs and he practically made 1/3 of my mod. For me he is a superstar and I show my respect by using his work, learning from it and making sure he is included in the credits. After all, his personal release of the Gondor units has long been lost to the sands of time (well the thread is still on the TWC, but unupdated for a LONG time, 3 years or something like that).

I respect LL's decision, I dont agree with it, but I do respect it, with means I will not simply start using his HE models and textures just because feel like doing so. There is nothing else for me to do.

[Mr.Jox]

Guys stop spamming the thread. Do you want to get warning message from moderators? (Actually Ngugi already did one). Go move your discussion in the proper thread.

[Taro_M]

This whole thing has gotten a bit out of hand and I kind of had a hand in that. Sorry for taking couple of pages from your thread Arthalion. I honestly wish best of luck in your future modding endeavours, dont give up!

[Arachir Galudirithon]

Mourn the loss of this mod as you see fit or post here about Arthalion's units but the discussion about permission should stop now.

Whilst your our opinions are all valued and duly noted neither side of this argument will back down and LL won't change his position as is his right under the agreed rules of Total War Center. So if you wish to carry on the debate go ahead and make a petition to the right people but leave this thread to languish; as is its fate.

To that end, the thread will indeed be closed as the matter has essentially been resolved. Should Arthalion's get any further ground on the permission then I would urge you to start a new thread so as to 'start fresh'. Arthalion, if you wish to oppose the closing then by all means pm me or Ngugi.

CLOSED

Garo arad vaer!