High Elves Graphic Improvment [WIP Standby]

[Everto]

@Taro_M,
My thoughts exactly. This is a community effort, and the rational behind not allowing someone to use your textures being "just because", without even so much as an honest explanation, particularly when they are of such high quality and beloved by the community, is rather distasteful. As you said, there is nothing to gain here for LL, it's pure obstructionism for the sake of being obstructionist. This is a non-profit mod, and credit is always given where credit is due. LL created some great models, and Arthalion used that material to create some truly exceptional graphical improvements that LL never pursued. If anything, LL's reputation is only further enhanced by Arthalion's work. I plan on writing to LL on the behalf of the community to give permission for Arthalion to release his work to the community, or even just parts of it, and I urge the rest of the community to do the same.

Regards,
Everto

Edit:
@Araval
We are all fully aware of the restrictions that LL has placed upon his models, however if one had a moment of honest reflection and asked themselves; what is the harm, to my work, to my ego, and to my reputation, of allowing Arthalion to pursue the modification of models made by me, that will in all probability not end up in any "official" Third Age release, and that will in no way shape or form affect anything in my professional or personal life other than the knowledge that I have obstructed others in further updating my work to be used in completely separate and non-LL affiliated submods... this all seems unnecessarily deliberate in preventing change and improvement by the rest of the community. In a time when only a handful of involved modders are still working in TATW, to forbid the use of his models without so much as a compromise seems a little unfair to the rest of the community.

[paradamed]

It is actually very sad that Louis did not give the permission. It is a loss to the community. Not to mention submods are actually very scarce these days. I think that, in a way, this is just like PJ forbidding people to create units using his weta designs. We only have a mod afterall because people are not entirely strict about giving permissions (PJ, Tolkien, Weta). Just let everybody have fun playing the game, as long as credits are given, this is my opinion.

[Mr.Jox]

Am I the only one who didn't hear about restriction on creating models based on film designs? I have seen a lot of mod content in internet. Helms Deep for l4d2, TATW for med2, characters for Garry's mod, maps for Chivalry etc. and so on.

[paradamed]

Actually I was only trying to make a comparison. I dont think PJ/weta actually forbids the use of his designs.

[Mr.Jox]

Yup coz why would they share smth like this: http://wetaworkshop.com/projects/the...e-armies-2014/
Or why do they create chronicles books?

[Taro_M]

Personally I see it that way: if my work is free to be used someone better then me might stumble upon it and say "Hey! This is pretty decent, Ill might improve it a bit". This is pretty much how my gondor units came to be: I did a really derpy looking thing that tried to look like stuff in the movies (and failed badly), but then Turambar came along and asked if he could use them. He pretty much created the Gondorian soldiers I still use a s base for lots of my stuff. Not only that, by looking at the way Turambar did the textures and modelling I was able to figure out the better way to do glint and other stuff. Not to mention the crapload of derivative models I created from that.

Now dIRECTOR used my work as base to create his version of Gondor militia along with some recolors for some other units of mine. He came up with something that I liked the look of, so now I plan to create my own version based of his work.

I hope you can see the pattern.

I just think you cant possibly lose anything by granting a permission for using your work to everybody that would like to use it. You are likely to gain something from it.

Still the original author should have the the possibility to put the boot down if someone uses your work in truly evil fashion or tries to monetize it. However, if someone really wants to screw you over, no amount of permission withholding or complaining is going to stop such person. Saying "nobody is allowed to use my work in any shape or form" while you can use it anyway just stifles the creative community that does resect your decision, while doing nothing to the people that dont care about your rules and do whatever they like.

[rafmc1989]

Zarathos, you have right!

M2TW is an open source format nowdays! No one has the right to create a permission policy.

And remember that:
NO MODDING = NO FUTURE

[Zarathos]

M2TW is an open source format nowdays! No one has the right to create a permission policy.

I never said that. M2TW cas/mesh/texture files are a proprietary format and, by eula, it's forbidden to reverse engineer them. The fact that CA never bothered about legally pursuing reverse engineers (basically the guys like me that, for example, created conversion tools from mesh to ms3d and vice versa) and stop their misbehavior doesn't mean it's legal. It's just tolerated because, over the time, it provided great longevity to the game itself (translated into sale revenues for the company).
As long as a texture is a tga, psd, png, gif or whatever else, you can claim your rights over it. When it's transformed into a proprietary format you shouldn't even try to mess with by eula, claiming any authority over them and pretending to set up restrictions over them is just ridiculous. It's like decompiling a copyrighted software, recompiling it into another executable and pretending to make money selling licensed copies of it.
If someone of you plays SC2 and knows its map editor knows what I mean, you can create as many maps as you want and you can't claim any right over them as they are saved as ".SC2Map " files which are a closed proprietary format. The only guys that should have the power to impose restrictions and distribute permissions over meshes and textures are the CA's administrators that created and copyrighted (for real) mesh and texture file formats. Period.

My textures are like drawings and I do have rights over them. I've used the works of Tolkien, weta and other artists as inspiration to create something new in a different media which is very different from editing existing works in the same media and releasing it under a different name.

If you rasterized images of Weta artworks without asking their permission (like someone did with The Hobbit dwarves here), you are probably the first one that infringed a design copyright here.
We can discuss this over and over, but the truth is we both know I'm right. You know... internet made everyone think that pasting "©Date Name" over something gives them all right over it, which is pure . Copyright registration is not something to be taken lightly kid... it concerns lawyers and other qualified professionists and institutions, while Creative Commons and GNU licenses are just something you can use to replace the toilet paper with during a complicated session.
You know... tomorrow morning I could burn your textures on a CD-Rom, ship it to my home address into a sealed envelope and then pay a visit to a judge telling him you stole my work. I can give him the envelope which can be used as a proof of unassailable date and content (timestamp of files can be easily changed with Visual Studio and 2 lines of code). Could you be able to do the same anticipating me? Could you be able to prove you didn't steal those textures from a project of one of your university mates long time ago? You talk about other medias... so what is gonna happen if I create a copy of your model on Mount&Blade engine and then I convert it to M2TW?
You are barricading yourself behind walls of thin air.

PS: I'm just against editing my textures, there are plenty of ways to work around it.

No, not really. By direct experience I can say you are just shipping "take it or leave it" works. Otherwise I still can't explain why a few block copies of a some of your model parts (texture included) have been denied to DaC some time ago.
Anyway, don't worry. I demonstrated that workarounds exist, and you know it very well. As soon as I finish my modding work with DaC I'll start releasing "freely inspired" copies of your models that everybody can take and mess with. And when your nickname will be wiped out from mod credits you will probably understand that narrow minded policies never took anyone very far.
I can even stream that live on http://www.twitch.tv/ if you want to be sure I'm replicating your models from scratch.
This community can protect you from bad usages of your models by other modders, which is something I totally agree with. But no one on this planet can save you by me replicating from scratch, with small intentional differences, your models. It can just be a matter of reputation, but this is internet and my name is well hidden behind a nickname, who gives a about it? If you want to be a with other people you are free to do it, but you can't complain if someone does the same against you then. The wheel never stops spinning.

[Everto]

No, not really. By direct experience I can say you are just shipping "take it or leave it" works. Otherwise I still can't explain why a few block copies of a some of your model parts (texture included) have been denied to DaC some time ago.
Anyway, don't worry. I demonstrated that workarounds exist, and you know it very well. As soon as I finish my modding work with DaC I'll start releasing "freely inspired" copies of your models that everybody can take and mess with. And when your nickname will be wiped out from mod credits you will probably understand that narrow minded policies never took anyone very far.
I can even stream that live on http://www.twitch.tv/ if you want to be sure I'm replicating your models from scratch.

[Taro_M]

"You are improving my textures and this is exactly what I don't like."

its not even about someone improving your work, hell someone can take my models and make a total mess of the textures and I still wouldnt mind in slightest. Yes such person might made stuff that is worse then my original work, so what? At the very least that person might learn something new while doing that. Been there, done that. My old stuff was pretty damn bad, but you have to start somewhere.

Did Arthalion used the original models? I don't know. The answer is probably yes. And this is not good because LL can claim his rights on them But again, if he reshapes the models from scratch using 3DS Max and remaps them on *HIS* textures using ZBrush, what can that guy do then to deny his permission? Nothing.

This pretty much exactly how I did my version of the Numenorean helmet: took the one created by KK and used it as a reference to create my own version from scratch. KK actually contacted me to check if it really was my own version.

It dosent really matter if Arthalion used LL's textures as reference or simply used what he needed from them. Using already created content is good way to cut down the time required to create new stuff. We all do this modding thing for schitz und giggelz, non-profit, in our free time. Making the whole thing easier for each other should be always kept in mind.

M2TW is an open source format nowdays! No one has the right to create a permission policy.

Oh, I so much wish it actually was. JA2 community kept going on the JA2 source for over 11 years and created an incredible 1.13 mod, imagine what we could do with MTW2 source code.

As for permission, its should be down to good manners: I wrote this in the readme of my Gondor units OSP:

This is an OSP, it means that no permission is needed to use my work. All I require is to include credits I put at the end. Otherwise you are free to use and edit my units. In case you want to include large number of my units in some project then PM would be nice, just to let me know. It will help me to keep track of my work.

[Louis Lux]

My textures are like drawings and I do have rights over them. I've used the works of Tolkien, weta and other artists as inspiration to create something new in a different media which is very different from editing existing works in the same media and releasing it under a different name.

This issue has been discussed to death already there is really no point to discuss it further.

PS: I'm just against editing my textures, there are plenty of ways to work around it.

[Everto]

And I'll be more than glad to reshape the models for Arthalion if he is not skilled enough to do it by himself just to have the satisfaction of circumventing some stupidity (which is something I *LOVE* to do in my life).

PS: I'm just against editing my textures, there are plenty of ways to work around it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I do believe we have a challenge gentlemen, Zarathos, are you ready to flight-suit up?!

[Ngugi]

This thread has spun off, be it close at hand during circumstances, from the thread's purpose into a general debate on the topic of policy and integrity of creator material.
You're much welcome to keep that discussion up and going, but anyone do then start a new thread on and for that topic please.

[Louis Lux]

If you rasterized images of Weta artworks without asking their permission (like someone did with The Hobbit dwarves here), you are probably the first one that infringed a design copyright here.
We can discuss this over and over, but the truth is we both know I'm right

You are completely wrong there chump, I create textures from scratch. I don't rasterize .
Drawings are artistic works and therefore intelectual property. I have a moral right over my artistic creations and also have a right to maintain its integrity.

If you'd like to know more about authors' right, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors%27_rights

[Taro_M]

I have a moral right over my artistic creations and also have a right to maintain its integrity.

Indeed you do, I do not question it.

Let me ask you this: what do gain from withholding the permission to edit your work? Or the other way around: what do you have to lose if you allow people to use your work as they see fit? (with credits being provided to you as the original creator though)

I simply do not understand the reasoning behind all of this.

[Hero of the West]

I feel we should just accept LL's decision and obey the made up forum rules. No order is chaos.

There is something to say for sharing freely as long as the work is not misused or abused.

I myself refused king kong parts of Mos because it was all the unique content of Mos. It was an honor and no misuse of our work. Yet it rendered us obsolete.

In the case of LL. It is his prorogitive to make this choice. Even though when used properly , he could consider the use of is work as a compliment

[baz44331]

its very sad to see that the work done on the retexture can not be released. but I will say this. I have modded games for many years and i have seen a game just like Med2TW go from it very high points of modding to a very low point, TBH in 10 years these forums will more and likey be dead. and no one will care anymore because there will be a new TA mod that will take the front on middle earth modding. Then the arguments on rights will be pointless because the work will not used anymore. I let anyone use my work.. so to see it live on in other mods and in other games and that more people can enjoy it. That all my hard work on textures can use and not die and if someone improves then i will tip my hat to him and tell him a job well done.. I will then learn from how this artists improved this and i will then take somthing from this process.

[Dutch-Balrog]

LL won't change his mind, just live with it people. I would have liked to see 1 or 2 of these units in DaC but if LL doesn't want it i respect his decision. The current high elves already look amazing, way better than 50% of the rest of TATW's units, so they would be one of the last factions in need of a graphical upgrade.

[Zarathos]

I feel we should just accept LL's decision and obey the made up forum rules.

LL won't change his mind, just live with it people.

This is why I'm gonna bypass all that in a way no one will be able to avoid.

Honestly, it just tedious and pointless. I really can't see a good reason for accepting this policy since it's just damaging everyone inside this community preventing a great mod to be released. It's like the greedy obese kid that doesn't want to share his snack with starving people.

You know, when you work on a TATW mod, especially if you joined it recently, you are just given with a huge amount of models. Perhaps the mod founder (if he's still working on it) knows who did what and which models are not to be touched... but you don't. All you can do is to target a model, improve it, release a patch and then receive a PM from the author telling you that the model belongs to him, you infringed his permissions and you should revert everything you did as fast as possible.
No one ever bothered about creating a list of model creators and permissions. So when the hits the fan, the first thing you want to do is to take out a gun and shoot because that maybe wasted two or three week of work for a reason is nowhere close to be good.

And this is not even the worst case scenario. Imagine a modder that released something, set up restrictions on it and then disappeared forever and ever. This means he's not giving a heck anymore about this community, but he has still the power to stop his overall improvement.

We should really get rid of this kind of things if we want to make this community a better place. That's all.

This is the reason why I consider Withwnar's permission policy one of the wisest thing I've ever read on this forum, and this is why I'm hereby going to adopt the same approach for my works starting from now. Let me just quote it once again:

All of my submods are free to be included in anybody else's mod, submod or compilation. Permission is still required but it will only ever be denied in one circumstance: if the author(s) of that mod/submod/compilation deny permission to others for their own work.

I am of the belief that all modding should be open and free to use by anybody in any way they choose. After all, we're all building on someone else's work or shared knowledge to some degree, directly or indirectly. If your attitude is one of "anything I make is not for anybody else to reuse" then fine, that's your right, but then you should not be reusing anybody else's work either, in my opinion. If you're absorbing other people's work to improve your mod then let others absorb your work to improve theirs.

I'm pretty sure LL never did everything by himself during his modding career. And if everybody inside this forum adopted this policy since the beginning, he would have probably stopped creating pointless obstacles long, long time ago. Leeching work denying to others the opportunity to do the same with your creations is the worst thing ever.

[Commander Crotchduster]

I was eagerly awaiting the release of this submod (technically this isn't even a "mod", more of an "add-on" since it only includes a few different models) but then this happens...

I was following the project for creating a new and improved roster for the HE in TATW years ago. Yes, it was started by LL and he did contribute to it but AFAIR the project was the collaboration of multiple modders and not just LL. A Chinese(?) modder called "Lu Bu" was responsible for some of the best parts of that project, I definitely remember that those "better" faces found on the Lindon Longspears, Rangers and the Eldarinwe units were his work for example. Some of the skins were done by bilwit along with LL. It's a real shame that all these other people who contributed to this project let the guy who has got a rather "weird" (trying REALLY hard to not be insulting here) attitude towards "intellectual property" and "permissions" be the one solely responsible for handing out the usage rights of these models & textures.

Arthalion's work here is a lovingly and masterfully crafted project merely aimed towards providing people an alternative to the HE roster based on the ones from vanilla TATW. The release of these models would only provide freshness to TATW which already suffers from a lack of new stuff. There is nothing more natural than making alternatives to VANILLA models from a mod, everybody does that and modders with an attitude like LL are really rare in my experience. I've seen people forbidding the use of their work in other mods but this is the first time when this is denied even for such a minor submod only aimed towards providing an alternative to vanilla models. I really hope that this attitude of LL does not mean that TATW permanently lost a talented person like Arthalion. As it seems now, ATTILA:Total War modding scene = WON, TATW modding scene = LOST.

The Quendi and especially the Noretirno units in particular are a massive improvement, I hope this submod gets released in one way or the other at some point... GO GO Zarathos, you are awesome! And Taro_M, I wish every modder were as cool as you are!