Proposed Suebian Roster

[Mithridates_Eupator]

Since I play Suebi a lot, I have done some thinking about how I would shape their roster. I decided to do a write up about it to get feedback before I make a submod. I have tried to stay as close as possible to the current roster, but have trimmed away some of the overly similar units. I think some of the regional units (like Germano-Celtic Ambushers and Cavalry) should be moved to AOR. I've also rewritten the unit names and descriptions and standardized the spellings. Here's what I've got.

Pre-Reform
The pre-reform Seubian roster reflects the scarcity of not only swords but iron itself. The most prized possession of an adult member of the tribe is his iron-tipped spear, the framae. As a tribal society everyone is expected to be a fighter. Those who can afford or have won their spear stand in the spear-line, and those who lack a spear take up support roles as skirmishers. The spear-line itself in this period is more fluid than it will be later, primarily due to lack of high-quality shields and armor. The basic spearman of the Suebian army would be considered a heavy skirmisher by other factions. The veteran members of the tribe specialize as either ambushers, heavy spearmen, or naked fanatics based on their personalities and equipment. At the top of the early Suebian roster are German warriors who possess Celtic longswords, either through conquest or trade.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Slengwoz (Slingers)
Slengwoz ("Slings") are young or inexperienced warriors from the lowest class of Germanic freemen. They are too poor to afford spears and skirmish instead with a sling and stones.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Slengwonz)

Buganiz (Bowmen)
Buganiz ("Bows") are Germanic tribesmen that are lacking or otherwise incapable of wielding the equipment to stand in the spear-line with the rest of their tribe. They are nonetheless deadly hunters with the bow and arrow.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Skutjonz)

Jugunthiz [early] (Skirmishers)
Jugunþiz ("Youths") are young or inexperienced warriors who skirmish with spear and shield to screen the more experienced members of the tribe. They are eager to prove themselves in front of their fathers, brothers, and uncles.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Juguntha)

Buwandiz (Club Levy)
Buwandiz ("Peasants") are tribesmen from the poorest class of Germanic freemen. They cannot afford a framea spear and so make do with clubs and axes.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Slokhonz; slightly increased charge to match Kariloz)

Kariloz (Levy Spearmen)
Kariloz ("Adults") grow up in the cycle of raids and pitched battles that mark Germanic tribal warfare. Each one has seen men die first hand, and many have killed. They are proud to fight for their tribe, and are willing to take risks. Nonetheless, they will retreat if it means a deadlier strike later.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Gaisofulkho; addition of two javelins)

Dugunthiz (Veteran Spearmen)
Dugunþiz ("Doughty Ones") are veterans of many battles and have all taken their share of skulls. They are experienced fighters who have chosen to stay with their tribe instead of becoming mercenaries or retainers, and as such they inspire those around them.

Equipment and stats:
same as Kariloz, but with slightly better spear, shield, and offensive stats. Have inspire.

Stalkondiz (Night Fighters)
Stalkondiz ("Stalkers") are unconventional warriors who understand well the psychological aspects of battle. They are masters of ambush who appear seemingly out of nowhere, shattering morale with their screams as they charge.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Skadugangaz)

Spehondiz (Skirmisher Cavalry)
Spehondiz ("Scouts") are fierce light cavalry used for scouting and screening the main army. They ride their personal horses, inherited as part of the family estate, which are little more than ponies when compared to Hellenic or Persian cavalry. They are no shock cavalry, but instead work closely with infantry when the battle ensues.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Rithonz Spekhoi)

Wulfoz (Fanatic Spearmen)
Wulfoz ("Wolves") are men who have reacted to battle differently from their fellow tribesmen. Reflecting an ancient Indo-European tradition, they have voluntarily outcast themselves from society and practice animal imitation in the seclusion of the forest. In warfare they are inhuman and inspire a mixture of fear and respect to those around them.

Equipment and stats:
(Same as DeI Woithiz Waitha)

Herumannoz (Sword Masters)
Herumannoz ("Swordmen") are experienced fighters who have acquired Celtic longswords either through wealth, luck, or impressing a warchief through acts of valor. They will die to a man before they surrender their sword.

(Same as DeI Herunautoz)

Post-Reform
More plentiful iron, imported or taken from Celtic and Roman neighbors, shapes the arms and tactics of the late Suebian roster. The spear is still the prestige weapon of the Suebian freeman, but knives and shortswords are beginning to appear in the hands of commoners. Emphasis has shifted away from ambush tactics and towards shieldwall. Access to better shields with iron bosses and sometimes iron rims allow the warriors of the tribe to stand shoulder to shoulder and grind the enemy down. Suebian warchiefs use the increased wealth from contacts with the Celtic world to support retainers called thegns. They are the shock arm of the Suebian roster and are used to break the enemies shieldwall. The fanatic tradition of Germanic warfare is continued by the Worgoz, who are the forerunners of the berserkers of the Viking age.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Jagondiz (Bowmen)
With greater access to quality weapons, wielding a bow in battle has become more of a choice than a shortcoming for a Germanic warrior. Jagondiz ("Hunters") are men who because of their skill with the bow choose to specialize as archers, though they still carry a spear for close-range combat.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Skutjanz)

Jugunthiz [Late] (Skirmishers)
Jugunþiz ("Youths") are young or inexperienced warriors who skirmish with spear and shield to screen the more experienced members of the tribe. They are eager to prove themselves in front of their fathers, brothers, and uncles. Their weapons are of a slightly higher quality than their pre-reform counterparts, reflecting the improved access to iron.

Equipment and stats:
Same as earlier Jugunthiz, but with better melee weapons.

Sahso (Levy Knifemen)
Though the spear is still king of the Germanic battlefield, native Germanic short-swords called sahso ("Knives", Old English "Seax") are beginning to appear in greater numbers. With a shift in emphasis away from skirmishing and towards the shieldwall, the close-quarters advantages of the seax become apparent.

Equipment and stats:
Based on Buwandoz, but with short-swords instead of clubs. Better shield and defensive skill but poorer charge. Has shieldwall ability.

Gaizoz (Levy Spearmen)
Gaizoz ("Spears") will remain the primary weapon for the Germanic warrior until well into the Viking age. More and better iron mean longer and larger spearheads are available to the common man. Better shields with iron bosses encourage a shieldwall tactics with warriors standing shoulder to shoulder reminiscent of the Greek Hoplites.

Equipment and stats:
On par with earlier Dugunthiz, but with more focus on defense. Has shieldwall ability.

Druhtiz (Veteran Spearmen)
Druhtiz ("Troops") are veteran warriors who see war as way of life, perhaps even a profession. Increased contact with the Celtic and Mediterranean world mean increased opportunities for warchiefs, and warchiefs always need reliable men.

Equipment and stats:
Based on Gaisoz, but with better weapons and access to basic armor. Balanced offensive and defensive stats.

Marhoz (Medium Cavalry)
Marhoz ("Horses") are heavier than their cavalry forerunners. Access to better bloodlines acquired through trade and raids mean bigger and faster animals, just as cheap iron leads to better equipment. Nevertheless these warriors are still far from a professional cavalry.

Equipment and stats:
(same as DeI Marxolitho Wolxiskod)

Wargoz (Wild Infantry)
Wargoz ("Stranglers") still keep to the ancient ways of the outcast warrior. Their equipment might be new, with iron longswords and iron-rimmed shields, but inside their chests beats a heart as primal as the wolf and the bear they imitate.

Equipment and stats:
Based on Mercenary Berserkers. High-quality swords and shields, no armor (though bear's head and pelt counts as light helmet)

Heruthegnoz (Sword Thegns)
Heruþegnoz ("Sword Thegns") are professional warriors in service of their warlord. They are experienced men, hungry for battle and glory. They wield the finest weapons and armor their lord can give them, and will fight for him until death so long as he is worthy of it.

Equipment and stats:
(based on appropriate DeI unit)

Gaizathegnoz (Spear Thegns)
Gaizaþegnoz ("Spear Thegns") are professional warriors in service of their warlord. They wield large spears, far more impressive and expensive than the framea of old, that can skewer man, boar, and horse alike.

Equipment and stats:
(based on appropriate DeI unit)

Marhathegnoz (Horse Thegns)
Marhaþegnoz ("Horse Thegns") are a true Germanic heavy cavalry. Historically the Eastern Germanic tribes like the Goths developed a large body of heavy cavalry in response to the threats of steppe warfare, but eventually every Germanic tribe came to see the value of heavy cavalry to a greater or lesser extent.

Equipment and stats:
(based on appropriate DeI unit)

[GourmetGorilla]

This is very, very well thought out. I've seen the scarcity of iron topic brought up before on this forum, so I know this submod would have the wholehearted support of Suebi fans everywhere, myself included.

[rick1063]

Very nice, I would rep it if I knew how!

[luck_ponte]

I would rep it if I knew how!

Just click the green button bellow the post (inferior left corner, just next to the bright red report button) Now, out the sidenote, I agree, I always felt a bit uncomfortable with how many swords the Suebi could field. Since in DeI the rock-paper-scissors mechanic is mitigated (or at least attenuated) it would make sense for the Suebi to have less swords and more spear infantry.

[Mithridates_Eupator]

Great! I'll get to work on the mod. I'm going to keep the stats as close to regular DeI as possible (no Super Suebi here). I'm also going to work on the unit descriptions a bit more. I want to make it clear that iron was important, but not deterministic in how Germanic warfare changed. The widening gulf between elites and commoners is at least as important and is reflected in the fighting styles of a passive (defensive) levy shieldwall and an active (offensive) elite shock troop, compared to earlier when every member of the tribe was on the offensive. I think I might also include a unit of "returned mercenaries" in the late roster, to represent the Germans who went farther afield to fight in Mediterranean (Roman, Carthaginian, Greek, depending on alternate history) armies. Perhaps I'll just copy and paste the Roman auxilia unit for the Germans.

[FlashHeart07]

What about the boars head formation for some of them? And would it make sense to include horse stabbers and or hewers? Though I have only found references of them being used by caesar against Pompeius. But so far I like your idea. Though the suevi roster in DeI is not bad just need to have some units moved to show the lack of proper iron. Sword Masters are too easily recruited

[Velico]

Looks good! Did you see my post about the German roster being inaccurate or did you notice the same things I did while playing that campaign? I'm really surprised they allow so many sword units in Germania early in this mod. I constructed a pretty long, source-filled post about it (a few pages back now) but there was very little activity from the devs on it and I don't have the modding chops or ambition to make a submod.

[FlashHeart07]

The devs have so many other things to worry about. But things like this is with no doubt read. I believe that they are more interested in getting the last overhauls done before they start to correct rosters for other factions. I have proposed to move sword units to a later date way before any of these threads. Consider the amount of work done and still needing to be done with this mod and they all have jobs, education, family etc

[Augustusng]

Yeah, this is pretty cool. Just one thing: you can't use letters like þ in unit names due to (I think) the way lua handles the names for reform scripts (Litharion can explain this better than I can). It's why we've removed all the characters like that from unit names in 1.0.

[Goffredo85]

Very well tought indeed, hope these changes would be implemented in the mod at some point.

[Mithridates_Eupator]

I have edited my original post to add a description of the stats. I've been working on the numbers and am going to try to make a mod soon. I've also been thinking about how to allocate these units to the military buildings. I think I might use the higher tier buildings for some "what if?" units based on history. For example, tier 3 and 4 stables give access to horse units such as those developed by the eastern Germanic tribes like the Ostrogoths. T3 would give a true, high-quality skirmisher cavalry and T4 a very heavy cavalry. That way the player could have an all-horse army like the Goths did for their migrations. The higher tier carpenters already have siege engines, which are very much "what-if" units for the Suebi. Perhaps the higher tier barracks could give access to a combo of cheap high-quality sword units and super-heavy infantry wielding two-handed axes. These guys would be on par with the Solduri and anticipate the Varangain guard. What do you guys think?

[Mithridates_Eupator]

Welp, I open up DeI with PFM and mucked around for a bit, but it's too complicated for me. I'll just leave my suggestions here and hopefully someone with more skill can implement the changes.

[FlashHeart07]

What is the timeframe for the goths? As far as I can tell the first time they are mentioned by the romans is 75 A.D. Just wondering whether they will be beyond the timeframe of this mod that starts in 272 B.C

[geala]

It's new to me that the Goths (what part of them?) used all-cavalry armies but my knowledge of later antiquity is rather restricted. The Goths at least at Adrianople 378 AD used a mixed army.


Your roster is very well thought out, although I would never play as a faction composed of trousered and bearded barbarians. Changing only existing units with PFM is rather easy, perhaps you try it again after reading some tutorials, f.e. this http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Unit-Creation?

[Ritter-Floh]

the Suebi get a revamp after i've finished my additional units/Dacian expanded roster. I will do it in the same quality like the Lugii faction. Release date could be 1.1

[Mithridates_Eupator]

the Suebi get a revamp after i've finished my additional units/Dacian expanded roster. I will do it in the same quality like the Lugii faction. Release date could be 1.1

Yay! Thank you! Feel free to use as much or as little of my text and ideas as you'd like.

Like I said, I would do it myself, but I'd have to modify the units, their names, which buildings create them, their portraits, and reform upgrades (which I definitely don't know how to do), and then edit out the unused units.