The ongoing search of a proper mass for individual soldiers.

[Garensterz]

Jack lusted

Q. Will formation and mass matter more in Rome II?
A. We are implementing new systems that will give more importance to the depth, mass and formation of units so you will see a heavy unit pushing a lighter one back in combat for example.

I will be frank with you Jack (if your'e reading). You have said this way back before Rome 2's about to release, and yet ( it's been 2 and a half years now) we haven't seen a single unit gets pushed back by a heavy unit. You confirmed it and yet we're still searching for it (see above). So, ARE WE GOING TO SEE THIS ONE HAPPEN IN ATTILA?!?

[damien007]

Mass plays an extremely important role when calculating charge damage, as demonstrated here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VmIAKHnqLc

The formation and depth of units is also used to calculate bracing bonuses during a charge. But fundamentally the war scape engine uses spacing scripts instead of unit collision, so units keep their distance from each other rather then shove each other around like in M2. I'm not a dev so take this as you will, but I think the answer to your question is a flat no.

[Garensterz]

Mass plays an extremely important role when calculating charge damage, as demonstrated here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VmIAKHnqLc

The formation and depth of units is also used to calculate bracing bonuses during a charge. But fundamentally the war scape engine uses spacing scripts instead of unit collision, so units keep their distance from each other rather then shove each other around like in M2. I'm not a dev so take this as you will, but I think the answer to your question is a flat no.

I have no problems on how CA implied the weight system especially on cav charges, actually they did it better than the previous games from what im seeing right now. However the only thing was hugely missing was the pushing between infantries, the weight is there but you will never notice it unless there is constant pushing and "lesser" 1vs1 combat happening.

@setekh
So to make things shorter. Pushing is not there.

[RogueLeader]

When a new engine is developed we may see a return of mass and actual spacing between soldiers and many other things fixed. I am hopeful but not optimistic for this to happen in the near future unless sales fall off a cliff. I thought after Shogun they might change the engine for Rome 2 alas they did not.

[damien007]

When a new engine is developed we may see a return of mass and actual spacing between soldiers and many other things fixed. I am hopeful but not optimistic for this to happen in the near future unless sales fall off a cliff. I thought after Shogun they might change the engine for Rome 2 alas they did not.

There's a very good chance they will develop a new engine for the upcoming Warhammer game, considering it will require a lot of new mechanics.

[Modestus]

There's a very good chance they will develop a new engine for the upcoming Warhammer game, considering it will require a lot of new mechanics.

My narrative for Warscape is that it is a production line, so I dont see a new engine only a slightly improved one and more workarounds. I would presume that Warhammer is already well into development and CA would be aiming for a 2016 release.

Expect the hype to start around summer when the Warhammer fans are in their basements sheltering from the sun.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Expect the hype to start around summer when the Warhammer fans are in their basements sheltering from the sun.

to be fair the sun sucks, long live the moon!

[PointOfViewGun]

I will be frank with you Jack (if your'e reading). You have said this way back before Rome 2's about to release, and yet ( it's been 2 and a half years now) we haven't seen a single unit gets pushed back by a heavy unit. You confirmed it and yet we're still searching for it (see above). So, ARE WE GOING TO SEE THIS ONE HAPPEN IN ATTILA?!?

Except we have seen it. Just because it's not portrayed the way some people expect it to happen, in a highly exaggerated manner, it doesn't mean that it's not there.

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

What does it matter if the units break after a minute?

[Garensterz]

What does it matter if the units break after a minute?

I think we all know units doesn't break in a minute anymore, I bet you guys haven't been playing the latest patch. And how would you know that? Attila isn't even out yet.

[Sheridan]

As Damien said, it is a very relevant factor for calculating charge damage (as is weapon damage, velocity and charge bonus if I recall correctly). In either case, that's not really the topic question.

When it comes to pushing, this phenomena does not exist on unit to unit level. Lighter units will not be pushed back by heavier, for example. You can observe individual troops being slightly better at pushing back enemies through matched combat if their mass is greatly exaggerated, though. Basically there's more "weight" behind their attack moves. This only creates a moshpit effect however, and does nothing to allow either side to be visibly pushed back from their position. At times, people confuse troops taking casualties with a pushing effect. What they forget is, soldiers aren't pushing dead objects. They're just walking over them to engage with a new enemy. So, when you have one superior unit and one inferior, the better of the two will (under the condition that formation attack is not enabled) slowly gain ground as enemies take more and more casualties. Again, it's not to be confused with pushing an object as they're indeed not pushing anything.

This is the sort of mechanic that would be interesting to see implemented based on multiple factors. Mass, on the one hand, for physical pushing. Alone, it wouldn't really do much good though, as discipline would be very important in conjunction with it. The other type of "pushing" that could be implemented is a morale based form, where troops that are low on morale visbily allow themselves to be pushed back at a pretty rapid pace, before finally breaking unless the balance shifts. This wouldn't need to include as much physical contact between troops, but could well be more apparent. A pretty interesting mechanic that could fit well when undisciplined infantry are about to get charged by cavalry, for one.

[InferiorBeing]

What does it matter if the units break after a minute?

Indeed.

[Lugotorix]

Matter of fact you can see units pushed back- horses even, in gamespot's latest preview.

[Sheridan]

Matter of fact you can see units pushed back- horses even, in gamespot's latest preview.

It's difficult to tell for sure from the footage, but I suspect that's the radius kicking in. The troops are spreading out when they're too closely bunched together, a mechanic that will typically be most apparent after a charge but can happen for a long while well into combat.

@Archimonday

I've done the same, without tampering too much with mass though. It works really well for units that use some sort of throwing weapon before the charge, but for some reason not as well for any unit without those.

[Garensterz]

It's difficult to tell for sure from the footage, but I suspect that's the radius kicking in. The troops are spreading out when they're too closely bunched together, a mechanic that will typically be most apparent after a charge but can happen for a long while well into combat.

Im not quite sure but, is this the video where lionheart was in it where they played a siege battle as an attacker and defeats the infantry general on top of the hill of the city? If so, it is much more of a spreading out rather than being pushed by the opposing units. The reason for that is the unit was not set in a attack formation, just like the one's we see in Rome 2 in barbarian to barbarian fight.

[Sheridan]

Im not quite sure but, is this the video where lionheart was in it where they played a siege battle as an attacker and defeats the infantry general on top of the hill of the city? If so, it is much more of a spreading out rather than being pushed by the opposing units. The reason for that is the unit was not set in a attack formation, just like the one's we see in Rome 2 in barbarian to barbarian fight.

I think he meant the latest twitch footage, not entirely sure though. In any case, it'd be strange to see this feature in Attila when it was promised for Rome 2 (which I highly suspect we won't, for the record). It's not revolutionary anyway, exactly - over 10 years old. They should have gotten it right by now.

[PointOfViewGun]

Im not quite sure but, is this the video where lionheart was in it where they played a siege battle as an attacker and defeats the infantry general on top of the hill of the city? If so, it is much more of a spreading out rather than being pushed by the opposing units. The reason for that is the unit was not set in a attack formation, just like the one's we see in Rome 2 in barbarian to barbarian fight.

Care to tell us specifically how you expect pushing to happen in game?

[Totalheadache]

Care to tell us specifically how you expect pushing to happen in game?

I think he is referring to the weight of the push etc and the mass/physics of how the units move giving a more realistic feel to what we currently have.

His answer I feel lies in a better engine...they have tried using combat animation techniques which to some extent work but they need to look at the unit mass as a whole more...

Am not sure the emphasis on individual "epic" one on one animations is the way to go..(but it does have it's place).

[Highlander of Scotland]

Care to tell us specifically how you expect pushing to happen in game?

Not directed at me but I will give it a shot.

I think that people want there to be movement of units not related to casualties i.e. if two units are fighting and one is a unit of heavy infantry and one is a unit of light infantry the light infantry will go back if it is equal numbers. Personally I think a good system would be to have the following factors:

Strength: each unit would have a strength on a scale that would influence how hard they can push back and how fast this would work in conjunction with other factors. Base strength would be based upon culture and the tier of unit. It could be lowered due to attrition and exhaustion.

Mass: For each man this would be based off of the culture of the man(within a range),his tier(within a range), his armour type and mass(which could be a big difference).

A charges power would not just be determined by these but also velocity, formation, terrain and other factors

Two types of combat would be present. Formed and unformed. Units in formed combat would fight as a unit and so would push back unformed units. Unformed units would seek to break apart their enemy and make the overall combat break up into total unformed where less pushing is present. Units would gain bonuses based on faction and type of unit. E.g. a roman unit would prefer to fight in a formation. Formed units would push more but cause less casualties.

A force would be exerted based on these factors and the resultant force would determine in which direction a man is pushed. Bear in mind that men behind the rear ranks push the guy in front of him allowing sheer numbers to push back and eventually break apart an enemy formation despite being unformed and their enemy well trained and disciplined. This would also mean that different parts of a line will bend differently.

This system would make levies very useful if used well, would bring true mass and force into the game and the 1 v 1 animations could still be used in unformed combat.

I will of missed some things out and not explained some stuff very well but this post is just my two cents.

[Archimonday]

Jam and I discovered a decent way to reinstate unit collision and prevent bunching of

As it turns out the charge in Rome II and most likely atilla is cancelled at a certain speed of the first few ranks of men. By increasing the deaccerlation on the units, the front ranks reach this value faster from the charge and thus, even without formation attack enable dont bunch up. To enchance this effect we increased the radius and entity mass, and things worked better. Unfortunately the smoothing of the collision is one big problem, units ricochet off each other when they collide due to poor collision smoothing. In Rome I and Med 2 they sort of glided out of the way of units that collided, these ones seem to bind together and then force each other apart.