Does the AI ignore economy?

[lampros69]

I am a bit confused regarding two inter-related aspects of the AI: 1) the sheer amount of money the AI ends up with so early; and 2) the number of units the AI can run, regardless of the number of cities owned. All this makes me wonder if the AI ignores economy altogether or at least have a money script that periodically grants it huge cash.

Let me give you a few examples. By turn 50 or so, the financial graph shows that four AI factions - the Byzantines most prominently - have over 100k Florins, when I (an admitted newb) have yet to break 20k. Further, I did a fog of war to cheat to see what was going on, and every faction seems to have an un-naturally large number of stacks - for instance, most flagrantly, the Crusader States faction had 3 full stacks in spite of owning only 1 territory. How is this possible?

Could someone briefly explain how the AI economy works? I am flabbergasted given that this is happening on average difficulty.

[mystang89]

The way I understand it is that the AI is given a bit of "Bale-out" money each turn or something like that. On top of that, again - to my understanding - they also spawn random armies. I guess the bale out money pays for those? I know I've negotiated with countries that said they were bankrupt but yet possessed armies 4x's my size.

When mentioned this I and asked if it could be modded out I got that it could be but that it would make the AI too easy or something like that. Again, I'm new too so take what I say with a grain or two of salt.

[lampros69]

The way I understand it is that the AI is given a bit of "Bale-out" money each turn or something like that. On top of that, again - to my understanding - they also spawn random armies. I guess the bale out money pays for those? I know I've negotiated with countries that said they were bankrupt but yet possessed armies 4x's my size.

Exactly! In my current game, I've reduced Scotland to Inverness alone as England, and yet out of nowhere Scotland hit me back with 2 full stacks.

So in essence the AI gets infinite cash?

When mentioned this I and asked if it could be modded out I got that it could be but that it would make the AI too easy or something like that. Again, I'm new too so take what I say with a grain or two of salt.

Well, that could be true for veterans but for newbs like me, I wish it can be at least toned down.

[Efstratios]

The way I understand it is that the AI is given a bit of "Bale-out" money each turn or something like that. On top of that, again - to my understanding - they also spawn random armies. I guess the bale out money pays for those? I know I've negotiated with countries that said they were bankrupt but yet possessed armies 4x's my size.

When mentioned this I and asked if it could be modded out I got that it could be but that it would make the AI too easy or something like that. Again, I'm new too so take what I say with a grain or two of salt.

I 've already asked that question before in an other thread. It seems that the AI spends all it's cash at the the beggining of the new turn,thus whenever you open the diplomatic screen mode,the AI has already run out of dosh. The AI can't cope with smart people aka you,me and humans generally,so in order to gain a "fair" advantage,it is granted loads of money. Not really balanced,but we can't do otherwise.

As for other users replying that Titanium and SSHIP fix those "bugs",I have already installed Titanium but I am currently too busy to check it out. I 'll try next week and I 'll tell you.

[MWY]

Titanium and SSHIP fixed those things.

[lampros69]

Titanium and SSHIP fixed those things.

Since I mod almost mod I try extensively, I am not sure if I want to do the process all over again when it's basically the same background.

Which one is more polished or complete at this stage, though - just in case I develop an urge to try?

[mystang89]

Were the two that you deleted G5 Looting Script Compact and G5 Faction Economy Script? If so, please let me know how much of an impact that has on the difficulty of the game. I don't want anything that feels dumbed down but I also hate the AI cheating....like the moors magically having a full stack next to their city when there wasn't anything within reach of it the turn before :/

[lampros69]

Were the two that you deleted G5 Looting Script Compact and G5 Faction Economy Script? If so, please let me know how much of an impact that has on the difficulty of the game. I don't want anything that feels dumbed down but I also hate the AI cheating....like the moors magically having a full stack next to their city when there wasn't anything within reach of it the turn before :/

I deleted 5 things: Those two scripts you mentioned, Besiege Upkeep, Player Notifications, and Interactive Events.

I certainly will let you guys know the outcome - but I won't have time to play extensively till Sunday.

Edit: I've also made two extensive modifications in my game outside of the script file: 1) the recruitment and upkeep costs are dramatically increased (about double or triple on average) to compensate for manpower increase per unit (all infantry have 250 max men) and hit points increase for cavalry; and 2) the historically larger cities are much larger - meaning those faction that have them, such as the Byzantines and Fatimids, are much richer. So these two things may interact with the deletion with the money script in a way that makes things even harder for the AI in my games.

[mystang89]

I think BGR does too. The only reason I don't use it is because it makes my load times crazy. Great mod though. I'll have to check out SSHIP and TItanium to see if they put something I don't want in game otherwise I'll probably use them.

[lampros69]

Does anyone know how to disable this altogether?

I did Google search, and several posts said look for "money script" in the campaign script file, but there is no such thing in that file.

Edit: Is this the script string I need to delete in its entirety?

";============= FACTION ECONOMY SCRIPT (GSTHOED) ================"

Edit: 2 Figured it out: It looks like deleting it kills 2 birds with 1 stone (since turn generation times are decreased quite a bit as well)

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...es-%28SS6-4%29

[MWY]

The AI gets one army spawn at the beginning of the game. That is needed to prevent blitzing from the player, as well as give them an increased chance of conquering rebel settlements more quickly.

The only other spawns I know of are family member spawns to prevent AI factions from dying to a certain extend.


In SS:

The AI, when low on money or in debth, gets boosted above 0. Usually above 10k. That's why you get huge stacks with one city. Then it spends everything, gets more broke, gets boosted harder, etc.

The AI also gets boni like trade boost and income boost via kings purse.


In SSHIP:

The AI, when low on money or in debth, gets boosted almost exactly to 0 and their mercenaries get cut to give them an income boost. When running low on money, the AI is prevented from building more troops, so they won't get into debth that hard and can continue building up their settlements.

The AI still gets some boni per settlement, like trade boni, but only a small income boost via increased kings purse.

Overall, the AI still gets a higher amount of units per city, but the margin is much smaller. You won't feel as cheated as in Original SS.


Can't say anything about Titanium, but it's probably similar to SSHIP I think.

@Iampros: You probably should check out SSHIP. We have historical city numbers on population (as far as they are known) and increased unit costs as well. We don't have maxed out unit numbers for obvious reasons like siege defence though.

[lampros69]

MWY,

Thanks for your detailed explanations. I do have a few follow-up questions, however.

1. You've explained how SS and SSHIP deal with the AI income management issue. Could you also explains what happens in the vanilla? I played it about a week when I first got the game, but I have not played since then. But I recall the AI could still compete okay without these money tricks (but I am a newb, and I like to play a leisured, non-rush game). I simply never saw the reason why these money scripts are needed in the first place.

The AI gets one army spawn at the beginning of the game. That is needed to prevent blitzing from the player, as well as give them an increased chance of conquering rebel settlements more quickly.

How does the AI pay for this? Do they get one big cash infusion to pay for this at the beginning as well? Otherwise I don't see how factions like the Crusader States - which goes into deficit from turn 1 - can remain financially afloat.

@Iampros: You probably should check out SSHIP. We have historical city numbers on population (as far as they are known) and increased unit costs as well. We don't have maxed out unit numbers for obvious reasons like siege defence though.

I am not sure I understand the bolded part - could you explain a bit more?

Thanks!

[Byg]

The money scripts were added because of the overhelming ease with which you could defeat the AI without them. Sometimes a player might take a few months to complete his campaign and for many people that can seem like a waste of time when they realise the AI never really had any chance of winning.

[lampros69]

The money scripts were added because of the overhelming ease with which you could defeat the AI without them. Sometimes a player might take a few months to complete his campaign and for many people that can seem like a waste of time when they realise the AI never really had any chance of winning.

I understand that concern perfectly.

Nonetheless, there are two other related issues to consider: 1) player skill level (that is, some beginning folks are not good enough to thrive in such a dramatically-boosted AI environment); 2) player play-style (some folks simply like more leisured game-play, rather than the hectic rush, rush, rush play-style - I for one actually do not consider that "winning is everything").

Finally, be that as it may, there is surely a better way of giving AI a fighter's chance that having stacks materialize out of air when you think you've finally got him. It's not good for neither game-play nor historical realism.

P.S. I hope I do not come off as hyper-critical of this mod; it's amazing and possibly the best player-driven mod I've seen in any game. Nonetheless, there are two baffling, annoying aspects that really sap your enjoyment of the game in the name of boosting the AI that I detest: 1) the aforementioned AI economy/troop boosts; and 2) the Traits system that is so punishing (e.g. the nonsensical health system - really, leprosy is almost unheard of among royalty in any recorded era) as to take away the RPG dimension/enjoyment out of the game altogether.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Every new player will face difficulties, so it makes sense to start at an easy level with an easy campaign AI. The Lusted AI on easy difficulty should be easy enough for anyone.

The campaign AI depends on the money script to function. It would be on a default passive state otherwise. There would be some units sitting in cities and some basic building going on and that would be it.

By the way, "bankrupt" means that that faction has used all its money for that game turn, nothing more.

[Byg]

The SS trait system is mostly from Blood Broads and Bastards mod.
Leprosy amongst royalty: http://www.priory.com/history_of_medicine/leprosy.htm

[lampros69]

The SS trait system is mostly from Blood Broads and Bastards mod.
Leprosy amongst royalty: http://www.priory.com/history_of_medicine/leprosy.htm

That article lists a grand total of 5 royal members affected - out of some thousand years of medieval European history with countless kingdoms. I am not sure how this is intended to refute my point. In fact, the article explicitly says "The majority of those afflicted with leprosy were individuals belonging to the lower social classes" - which is precise what I said on this forum in the past (yeah, I've bleated about the disease system before elsewhere here(.

Finally, even if actual cases of leprosy among royals were higher than hitherto contemplated by historians, it cannot possibly resemble the rate of leprosy in this mod.

[Byg]

That article lists a grand total of 5 royal members affected - out of some thousand years of medieval European history with countless kingdoms. I am not sure how this is intended to refute my point. In fact, the article explicitly says "The majority of those afflicted with leprosy were individuals belonging to the lower social classes" - which is precise what I said on this forum in the past (yeah, I've bleated about the disease system before elsewhere here(.

Finally, even if actual cases of leprosy among royals were higher than hitherto contemplated by historians, it cannot possibly resemble the rate of leprosy in this mod.

Of course the majority of people afflicted were poor, the majority of people were poor.
The point is that nobility hid it when their own were affected, yet we still have notable examples of it. That indicates higher numbers were affected than history, written and controlled by the nobility, would suggest.

As for the proportion in the game reflecting reality, I have no idea. Obviously gameplay effects can be exaggerated because a game isn't reality. I mean look at those Giants wandering around the Stainless Steel campaign map. They are taller than cities.

Traits are fairly easy to adjust as you can usually just adjust a simple chance per turn of an effect occurring.

I don't include those traits in my own mod, so I know what you mean, but I can perfectly understand why they are there.

[lampros69]

Of course the majority of people afflicted were poor, the majority of people were poor.

The point is that nobility hid it when their own were affected, yet we still have notable examples of it. That indicates higher numbers were affected than history, written and controlled by the nobility, would suggest.

I get all that; but my point is that - given the nature of the disease, its transmission and its treatment - leprosy has always been found in far higher proportions among the lower strata of the population in any times, ancient, medieval, or modern, Occidental or Oriental. And the disease system completely runs roughshod over that fact. But since it seems like even you've recognized the inadequacies of the system, there isn't much to debate here between us.

Of course the majority of people afflicted were poor, the majority of people were poor.

As for the proportion in the game reflecting reality, I have no idea. Obviously gameplay effects can be exaggerated because a game isn't reality. I mean look at those Giants wandering around the Stainless Steel campaign map. They are taller than cities.

Oh, come on; now you are being silly! Of course, I am not asking for absolute historic fidelity. All I am saying is that if a feature 1) is clearly not historical, and 2) does not enhance the game, it simply has no place - or must at least be revised in its implementation.

Edit: I suppose you can say that the punishing disease system is necessary to give the AI a break and thus does enhance the game. But at least in my opinion, it destroys immersion and enjoyment, because the RPG aspect of the game is almost as large part of the game as the strategic management or tactical combat parts.

[lampros69]

The campaign AI depends on the money script to function. It would be on a default passive state otherwise. There would be some units sitting in cities and some basic building going on and that would be it.

But the vanilla AI doesn't have a money script, no? This is not a rhetorical question - I do not know. If that is indeed, the case, I won't be unhappy - especially given that some factions are far stronger than they are in vanilla or SS due to some city adjustments I have made.