[Submod] Improved Spotting Distances for more Tactical AI RELEASED Feb 2

[Butan]

Someone knows what is "hidingscalar" in the land_units table?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Default values seems to go in the direction -> skirmishers/loose units have smaller scalar (0.7-0.9) normal units have 1, and big units (cavalry, siege engines, elephants) have 1+.
So logically a smaller scalar means they are better at hiding, right?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I tried to give 0.1 and 100 to hidingscalar to some units, and they behaved exactly the same as before (same spotting distance, same speed while hidden, same animations, same same).

Still, I believe the presence of a scalar must mean something, maybe that something is in another table. Or maybe its useless

DeI_higind_and_spotting_values seems to really be the master settings

[krunsh]

I played about 2 or 3 campaign battles with big armies last night using this, combined with Kam's experimental patch.

First battle: My Massilian army VS one large Iceni garrison army + a half stack in reinforcement.

The garrison deployed itself on top of a mountain and waiting for their reinforcement to join up with them. Considering that the reinforcing army deployed in my rear, I was expecting the same stupid AI mistake of rushing at full speed through my army, mostly ignore its existence. This mostly happened and they wasted a unit of chariots this way. Something interesting happened when the rest of the half stack engaged my forces though (I had turned my whole army toward them, ignoring the garrison on the mountain... By force of habit.). As soon as their half stack got close, they made a more organized charge (Separating their troops instead of blobbing them.), and this triggered their whole garrison to come charging at my rear.

I was able to rout the half stack just in time to avoid the rear charge, but did not have time to re-position effectively. This resulted in a costly battle. Good thing I had conquered the south province of the island and was able to get the Iceni into a Client State agreement!

Second battle: Massilian army composed of mostly Pikes (First time trying them since 1.0!) with 2 spear hoplites on each flanks and archers in the back VS Large Suebi garrison force (No cav.).

I slowly moved forward in a stretched out line, hoping to avoid flanks from the slightly larger Suebi army. I was surprised by their lack or archers, and forced marched my army into range to start firing and force them to attack me (Not that the AI ever stays on defense...). To my surprise, about 6 units of Hunters were revealed and started firing at me while the rest of the Suebi force switched to "Triangle" formations (Can't remember the actual name... Arrowhead? Whatever!) and charged at different individual units.

They did attempt to focus my flanks, but my hoplites there were just to strong, supported by a unit of skirmishers. It wasnt long before they all routed, but I must say... At least the fight looked better than the usual mess of a blob with the Ai through all of their units in the same part of my army for easy flanks. Also pikes did well, they killed about half the amount of troops my spears did, but really allowed my archers to rain down on the enemies with less friendly fire (Due to pike distance, it seems. Archers often barely even fire once the line in front of them is engaged, I believe they did now.).

So thus far, while battle are still easy, I would say that the AI at least is less frustratingly dumb... And at least convey a sense of epic battle (Charging in a cohesive line instead of Throwing their troops all over the place and changing their mind mid charge (Probably related to unit detection!). Hiding units also caught me by surprise, though I can see how this might be better kept for multiplayer, if looking for a challenge.

Good work, I will play some more and report, and hope that this is all implemented in actual DeI soon... As my list of mods if getting rather large even though I use nothing fancy! (DeI + Kam's pack + This here + Gem + Aztec).

Thanks for all the work!

[MagicCuboid]

Thanks for the report, krunsh! I'm glad the AI is beginning to offer some surprises .

@Butan, "hidingscalar" is definitely worded to be some kind of adjustment to a unit's ability to hide. It may be vestigial/used in alpha builds however since the introduction of the LOS system could supersede that value. There are lots of old columns from Shogun/Napoleon/Empire that are no longer actively referenced by the game.

[Krixux]

Thanks for the report, krunsh! I'm glad the AI is beginning to offer some surprises .

@Butan, "hidingscalar" is definitely worded to be some kind of adjustment to a unit's ability to hide. It may be vestigial/used in alpha builds however since the introduction of the LOS system could supersede that value. There are lots of old columns from Shogun/Napoleon/Empire that are no longer actively referenced by the game.

well done
had some time to play with your values "as is"
(only changed General's values to original x 0.5)
(still difficult to stay to long at my pc though)

thus
3 battles in early campaign Rome Julia turn 42 to turn 48
hard on normal
1st against venetii
then 2 in a row with Luigii (genoa)

won all of them = pyrrhic victories that put me on defective not being able to make any conquest
the AI is simply "ferocious", flanked me every time and outsmarted my flanking most of the time just enough to grind my legions to pieces. my bitter victories forced me to retreat back to Italy
might be that we are making the AI to smart now ? lol

could be that my concentration is impaired a little but the BAI/AI really (at last !) is challenging thus these modification are definitively in the right direction !

[KAM 2150]

I will test it today.

[KAM 2150]

At first I did not wanted to be harsh on you guys as I thought that spotting thing was just a placebo effect, but I just did two battles with those changes and basic version of DeI.

In first one I had exact same units as AI (both Rome), AI infantry charged mine, had few spears in reserves on flanks and 2 sword infantry behind first line. AI cav targetted my infantry at first but before charging, attacked my cav instead. Battle won, but felt much different.

In second one I gave AI a bit of superiority in terms of cav and general units amount. Changes were even more visible. AI cav waaaited until most of his units were in combat and I had my hands tied, I had only 2 cav units and AI had 4 with better stats. Sending my cav would mean defeat for them so I wated for AI. Eventually AI cav attack my cav and wings of my infantry. In the end battle was won (I managed to save one of my cav units, but it didn't do that much later on anyway). The way in which AI picks his targets is much better.


Overal, those are some amazing stuff and should be in the main mod ; D

Good job guys! Thanks for help

[MagicCuboid]

Awesome!! Nothing like a KAM seal of approval . I have to say myself that I wasn't too sure if anything was accomplished until I watched my own replay videos. The AI behavior in two identical battles with and without the mod was very striking to me, and it really helped me understand AI behavior. Perhaps I can splice them into a quick preview video to advertise...

Also if these changes do find their way into the mod, it might be worthwhile to reduce the LOS of General units as Krixux and I have discussed, to help prevent them from charging in too early. I haven't noticed the generals being overly suicidal, but they also aren't exactly preserving themselves so perhaps a little "nearsightedness" would help them out.

[krunsh]

Could you guys tell me what order I should be loading these mods in?

- Improved Spotting
- aStats (I believe that's Kam's stat mod)
- Improved Events (I might take that one off, dunno if it's any use with DeI... Actually forgot I had it.).
- Aztec
- Gem
- DeI

I want to be sure that I'm testing with the proper effects on, and I'm very new to the mod manager thing. Used to rely on steam versions of things.

[FlashHeart07]

Could you guys tell me what order I should be loading these mods in?

- Improved Spotting
- aStats (I believe that's Kam's stat mod)
- Improved Events (I might take that one off, dunno if it's any use with DeI... Actually forgot I had it.).
- Aztec
- Gem
- DeI

I want to be sure that I'm testing with the proper effects on, and I'm very new to the mod manager thing. Used to rely on steam versions of things.

I suppose you are using Mitchs mod manager which is good
When you open up that you can click and see what files and other mods each submod conflicts with. GEM or Aztec overwrite each other in certain ways. I play with GEM before Aztec but really dont know what big difference it makes. Test that .
I dont believe that KAMS stat submod conflicts with the improved spotting since the two should change different tables so just put one above the other. Main thing is you want to put the main mod at the bottom. All submods to DeI must be loaded before it. Just remember that all mods loaded first will overwrite the ones next in line should they have conflicts.
So my list would look like this.
-GEM/Aztec
-Improved spotting
-astats
-DeI

[krunsh]

I suppose you are using Mitchs mod manager which is good
When you open up that you can click and see what files and other mods each submod conflicts with. GEM or Aztec overwrite each other in certain ways. I play with GEM before Aztec but really dont know what big difference it makes. Test that .
I dont believe that KAMS stat submod conflicts with the improved spotting since the two should change different tables so just put one above the other. Main thing is you want to put the main mod at the bottom. All submods to DeI must be loaded before it. Just remember that all mods loaded first will overwrite the ones next in line should they have conflicts.
So my list would look like this.
-GEM/Aztec
-Improved spotting
-astats
-DeI

Thanks a lot

I will put them in that order and play a few more turns tonight!

[FlashHeart07]

Thanks a lot

I will put them in that order and play a few more turns tonight!

No problem good idea is always to check for any conflicts and then decide what mod you want to overwrite the other for a given effect in game

[KAM 2150]

Ok, did more testing.

While basic version changes almost nothing (AI throws its cav long time before infnatry reacher my line), second version brings massive changes (like in my post above).

It gave me good results with basic DeI, now I will test some with experimental battles, should make it a bit hardcore

[FlashHeart07]

Finally I got the time to test this.

Using the experimental pack from KAM and the second version of this.
So far the AI is sligthly improved.
-They react better
-They try to flank with their cav
-They did a surprise ambush/attack on me which almost caughe me off guard. (Playing with Realism so no pausing the battle)
-They identify the biggest threat and react to that instead of my skirmishers (but they still send a unit or two after them)

Overall the BAI seems to improved a little bit.

[krunsh]

By ''Second Version'', do you mean the one with reduce hidden units spotting?

[FlashHeart07]

The alternative version yes. With decreased spotting distance for hidden units. Works like a freaking charm since the AI in densly forested areas are able to surprise attack you.

[HarkonRules]

The alternative version yes. With decreased spotting distance for hidden units. Works like a freaking charm since the AI in densly forested areas are able to surprise attack you.

Doesn't it make the AI very incompetent against you if you're hiding your own units, though?

[FlashHeart07]

Doesn't it make the AI very incompetent against you if you're hiding your own units, though?

I never just sit hidden with my army waiting for the enemy. So far the AI is capable of handling hidden units and then units that suddenly springs out.

[Krixux]

Kam2150:
as hard core as possible m8 !!!
and TY for your testing and dedication :p

MagicCuboid:
I have to say we did it m8 !

but there is still stuff to do

perfect balancing : but for sure KAM is already into it

FlashHeart07:
cool input, testing (lol) ...yet:
"Overall the BAI seems to improved a little bit"
a little ?

[FlashHeart07]

Yes a little. It has gone from ultra dumb to less dumb. A little is very good still, dont get me wrong.
But even though they flank and react better Im still able to defeat them on hard difficulty after 5-8 min.

[rjacko10]

Yes a little. It has gone from ultra dumb to less dumb.

Thankfully none the the AI cav realised the gaping hole in my wall, and opted to burn down my gates instead.