Here are the politicians that want to kill your children

[removeduser_487563287433]

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7967485/...st-the-vaccine

We're approaching an American election (by the biblicaly long standards of American election campaigns) and that means prospective candidates are soliciting support and as usual they don't care where it comes from at what they need to say to get it. All normal. But I think we have to draw the line at saying stuff that gets people killed.

Because that's what you're doing when you try to convince people not to get their children vaccinated.

In 1998 Dr Andrew Wakefield published a fraudulent paper supporting the claim that there was a link between autism and the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine (MMR). Since then the paper has been found to have been not conducted in a way that satisfies clinical standards, nor was it properly peer reviewed, and Wakefield was found to have been in the pay of solicitors seeking evidence that MMR did cause autism. He stands disgraced, is barred from practicing medicine, and the original paper is fully retracted and has no support in the scientific community.

Despite all of this, the paper was used as support for the hysteria that MMR causes autism, and many parents begun to fail to vaccine their children. As a consequence measles has gone from a disease that vaccination had caused to go extinct in the USA and the UK to being endemic - meaning it can sustain itself among the population. In particular, a recent outbreak at disneyland has caused over sixty people to become infected. Does it get worse? You bet it does: six of those cases were infants to young to have received the vaccination.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/23/7877321...ary-disneyland

Make no mistake - getting your child vaccinated is not a personal choice that effects just you and yours - it prevents our population from building up herd immunity that protects the most vulnerable, like babies. If you do not vaccinate your child you put not only them but every baby in your community at risk at contracting a life threatening disease.

So it's tragic to hear Rand Paul saying he has heard of "many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines".

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7966839/...accines-autism

And it's tragic that on Monday Chris Christie said vaccines should be voluntary and his office had to pretend the man is not a moron and rolled it all back:

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/2/7962479/...istie-vaccines

Personally I struggle to find a context where I could vote for either men after such statements.

[alhoon]

How vaccines cause mental disorders? I can understand if he said "poisoning" or heck, even "back problems in late life!" but... mental disorders? I thought that was just something South Park did for fun.

[TASS07]

How vaccines cause mental disorders? I can understand if he said "poisoning" or heck, even "back problems in late life!" but... mental disorders? I thought that was just something South Park did for fun.

I'm no student of medicine or any similar sort of expert but I had taken some interest in such disorders a few years ago: most mental disorders can either be traced to triggers in the nerve system/the brain or are suspected to be tracable to such. Scienec is tapping a bit in the dark still. So in theory a vaccine could cause mental disorders through damage of the former. It's not entirely implausable in general, I wouldn't call it likely though - especially given the complex checks and such that all sort of medication undergoes these days and how much experience we've gathered with vaccination against measles (and its best friends).

However the issue here is that the report/study implying such was simply bogus and has since been discredited. As such the scientific/factual causality that is implied by these politicians is simply non-existant. It's unlikely that any well-performed research would not have revealed that it's a lot of non-sense, as such one can only assume that they're either ignorant of science or are delibaretly creating fears to further their popularity. The quote that the OP gives is a blatant display of such an attempt "many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines" - mind the the word choice with "tragic" and how it is carefully describe how these poor childs are allegedly deprieved of their perfectly normal lives by these dangerous vaccines ("walking, talking normal children"). Populism at its best - and at its most dangerous.

Sadly this is a common thing in the relation between all kinds of scientific research and politics: Regularly polticians aim to exploit scandalous-sounding findings that are by far no longer state of the art or have even been directly contradicted by the scientific discourse.

[Adar]

I'm no student of medicine or any similar sort of expert but I had taken some interest in such disorders a few years ago: most mental disorders can either be traced to triggers in the nerve system/the brain or are suspected to be tracable to such. Scienec is tapping a bit in the dark still. So in theory a vaccine could cause mental disorders through damage of the former. It's not entirely implausable in general, I wouldn't call it likely though - especially given the complex checks and such that all sort of medication undergoes these days and how much experience we've gathered with vaccination against measles (and its best friends).

There are definitely ways for a vaccine to theoretically cause neurological damage. But is is very ironic that contrary to anti-vaccine claims the scientific community take those cases very seriously.

A good example is the possibility that the Pandremix flu vaccine was causing rare cases of narcolepsy.

Source
A paper that once promised to help unravel a medical mystery — why some children developed narcolepsy after receiving an influenza vaccine — has been retracted.

Narcolepsy is a disorder that causes extreme sleepiness, sometimes inducing uncontrollable ‘sleep attacks’ that can strike at any time of day. In 2010, a puzzling cluster of sudden-onset narcolepsy cases was reported in Europe among children vaccinated with GlaxoSmithKline’s Pandemrix flu vaccine against the H1N1 ‘swine flu’ that had caused a pandemic in 2009.
On 18 December 2013, researchers reported a possible connection between the vaccine and narcolepsy. In a paper published in Science Translational Medicine, they showed that people with narcolepsy produce immune cells called T cells that recognize hypocretin, a neurotransmitter that regulates wakefulness. People with narcolepsy tend to have low levels of hypocretin in neurons that control wakefulness, and the results supported the notion that autoimmune responses could be destroying the neurotransmitter.
The authors, led by immunologist Elizabeth Mellins and narcolepsy researcher Emmanuel Mignot of the Stanford School of Medicine in Palo Alto, California, went on to demonstrate that pieces of a flu protein often used in vaccines stimulated immune cells that recognize hypocretin. This suggested a mechanism by which the vaccine could contribute to narcolepsy in some people.
But on 31 July, the authors announced that they have been unable to repeat a key finding: that immune cells from people with narcolepsy respond to hypocretin more so than immune cells from people who do not have narcolepsy. “Because the validity of the conclusions reported in the study cannot be confirmed, we are retracting the article,” the team wrote.
The retraction is a setback for a field struggling to find an answer. “We continue to believe that the original scientific hypothesis remains a valid one that needs to be further explored,” said GlaxoSmithKline, a London-based pharmaceutical firm, in a statement. The company says that it is supporting research, including in its own labs, to explore the possible link between its vaccine and narcolepsy, and particularly to learn more about interactions between the vaccine and other risk factors in the people who developed the condition.
Those risk factors were a mystery even before the retraction. And although the paper suggested a possible link between flu vaccines and narcolepsy, it did not clarify why Pandemrix, in particular, would be problematic. The original study was also conducted in a relatively small number of people.
Given such small numbers, the retraction comes as little surprise, says immunologist Outi Vaarala of the Finland National Institute for Health and Welfare in Helsinki. Vaarala, who praises the authors for openly addressing the problems with their paper, also notes that the methods use to assay immune responses are difficult to reproduce, and says reviewers should demand that researchers repeat their experiments using multiple methods. “If you can show differences in T-cell reactivity between patients and controls when different read-outs are used,” she says, “the findings are likely to be reliable.”

So far I am not even convinced that Pandremix actually did cause narcolepsy as epidemiology is an absolute nightmare of a research field (any alarm on any issue will cause a spike in the number of reported cases).

[Sp4]

How vaccines cause mental disorders? I can understand if he said "poisoning" or heck, even "back problems in late life!" but... mental disorders? I thought that was just something South Park did for fun.

I imagine South Park did it for fun because it's such a very controversial topic.

[Generaal Van Heutsz]

How vaccines cause mental disorders? I can understand if he said "poisoning" or heck, even "back problems in late life!" but... mental disorders? I thought that was just something South Park did for fun.

this has now been confirmed to be true:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/w5/sleeping-si...epsy-1.1524420

or even better:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?...sy+vaccination

[Adar]

As a British person I didn't think you were able to vote for them anyway?

But I do certainly agree that any politician pandering to such stupidity should be considered ineligible for office. Here in Sweden it is the leftist/greens who are popular among the anti-vaccine crowd and I got exactly the same content for them.

[Dr Zoidberg]

*Breaking News* "Likely Republican Presidential Candidates deny science in efforts to garner popularity with rednecks. The weather at 11."

[Phier]

*Breaking News* "Likely Republican Presidential Candidates deny science in efforts to garner popularity with rednecks. The weather at 11."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...sine-liberals/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ine/50482856/1

Stupid flows both ways.

Edit: It would be interesting to see why some on the right and left are anti-vac etc. I'm going to guess the Right (outside of the religious) are due to anti-government reasons "They must be up to something!" while the left (outside of new age hippies) would be more anti-corporate, "They want to keep us sick to make money off us!"

[justicar5]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...sine-liberals/
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ine/50482856/1

Stupid flows both ways.

Edit: It would be interesting to see why some on the right and left are anti-vac etc. I'm going to guess the Right (outside of the religious) are due to anti-government reasons "They must be up to something!" while the left (outside of new age hippies) would be more anti-corporate, "They want to keep us sick to make money off us!"

That would not surprise me at all. Both sides probably get their share of new age weirdness as well, either small government commune types or left wing hippy commune types.

[frozenprince]

*Breaking News* "Likely Republican Presidential Candidates deny science in efforts to garner popularity with rednecks. The weather at 11."

Politicians pandering is as American as an assault rifle and mom's homemade frozen apple pie.

In all seriousness this is a big issue, but there's not a lot we the voting public can do about politicians other than not vote for them. Yes these people are spreading misinformation that can potentially kill, but the people that would listen to them and attribute value to their opinions are the ones that would ignore every legitimate viable scientific paper on the subject and do it anyway because "it feels right".

[Thanatos]

Politicians pandering is as American as an assault rifle and mom's homemade frozen apple pie.

In all seriousness this is a big issue, but there's not a lot we the voting public can do about politicians other than not vote for them. Yes these people are spreading misinformation that can potentially kill, but the people that would listen to them and attribute value to their opinions are the ones that would ignore every legitimate viable scientific paper on the subject and do it anyway because "it feels right".

The problem is that this misinformation has killed. People purposely opting out of vaccination programs when they were not medically diagnosed to be immuno-compromised or were too young to receive a certain vaccine has ruined herd immunity in a few regions, leading to deaths. An article by Forbes explains thus:

... I should also point out that whooping cough is a national problem, not just Washington State’s. The U.S. has had over 17,000 cases this year [2012], putting it on track for the worst year since 1959. The highest rate of infection in the nation is in Wisconsin (which has also been hit hard by anti-vaccine effects), followed by Washington and Montana. 10 deaths have been reported, mostly in infants who were too young to be vaccinated. For all this, we can thank the anti-vaccination movement.

[mrmouth]

*Breaking News* "Likely Republican Presidential Candidates deny science in efforts to garner popularity with rednecks. The weather at 11."

I believe this whole things started in the far-left liberal camp but yes, some Republicans are now hopping on this issue and making it into a big government issue. It fits what they do perfectly.

I don't know what the fat guy really believes, but what he said is smart politics based on public attitudes.

It is idiotic politics and thinking and whatever else because vaccines don't work unless everyone is vaccinated. There is no room for idiot parents to make ignorant decisions based on the "dont tread on me" garbage that the Right likes to roll out like a dead horse.

[sumskilz]

It is idiotic politics and thinking and whatever else because vaccines don't work unless everyone is vaccinated. There is no room for idiot parents to make ignorant decisions based on the "dont tread on me" garbage that the Right likes to roll out like a dead horse.

It's not really as simple as that. In very rare cases, vaccines can actually cause serious even fatal complications. I think all parents should vaccinate, it's statistically the most rational and safest choice by far, when something does go wrong though, it might be better that it wasn't forced on the parents by the government. I don't really buy the whole they only work if everyone's vaccinated either. My daughter got pertussis, even though she was vaccinated. She got it from a kid who was also vaccinated. It took awhile for anyone to figure it out though, because no one thought to check for it because she was vaccinated. So she actually wasn't even quarantined for the first two weeks, and yes other people, who were vaccinated got it. I imagine that the vaccination helped get her through it easier though.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's not really as simple as that. In very rare cases, vaccines can actually cause serious even fatal complications. I think all parents should vaccinate, it's statistically the most rational and safest choice by far, when something does go wrong though, it might be better that it wasn't forced on the parents by the government.

That is an irresponsible opinion. The chances of complications from vaccines are minute. But as I already explained, if people stop vaccinating we lose herd immunity, and then people, such as babies, who cannot be vaccinated, start getting sick. And that's what's happening right now. If we believe Government has even the slightest responsibility in protecting its citizens then vaccination must not be optional.

[sumskilz]

The chances of complications from vaccines are minute.

That's true, I agree.

But as I already explained, if people stop vaccinating we lose herd immunity, and then people, such as babies, who cannot be vaccinated, start getting sick. And that's what's happening right now. If we believe Government has even the slightest responsibility in protecting its citizens then vaccination must not be optional.

As long as you're clear that you're arguing that the herd is more important than the rights of the individual, and that government should be coercive in looking out for the safety of the heard over the rights of the individual, then cool. I don't personally have a strong opinion on it, because I think people should vaccinate. Realistically, I'm less bothered by government coercion when it's something I agree with, but thinking about it, I could be mildly concerned about the precedent.

Anyway, my main point was that it can be an individual rights position rather than a science-denial position.

EDIT:

reactionary and heavyhanded quarantine procedures would be preferred rather than forced vaccinations as the latter wouldn't have a chance of being declared constitutional in the supreme court

That's a good point, because then the reaction would be to an immediate, rather than potential, danger.

[Caligula's_Horse]

Normally I'm all for letting morons wallow in their own idiocy, but seeing as they're contagious and cost the healthcare system a fortune, its a real problem even for us non idiotic sections of the populace.

I know the whole "democracy" thing might have a problem with the concept, but honestly, I'm starting to think that its best to vaccinate the entire population through coercion if necessary. Its a dangerous precedent when it comes to civil liberties, but it'll also prevent tens of thousands of preventable illnesses on a yearly basis and greatly reduce the strain on the nation's health infrastructure, which seems like a fair tradeoff. And that's without getting into the possibility of something as virulent and deadly as small pox or bubonic plague cropping up, in which case preemptive and forceful vaccination might save millions.

A shame we can't vaccinate against stupidity. Or against demagogues, though I suppose it amounts to much the same thing.

[conon394]

The Anti-vax types are national embarrassment (in the US). Part of the problem is too many people get a poor education on even basic statistics (*). Part is that success breeds failure it seems having more or less eliminated so many fearsome illnesses (via public health and vaccination) a lot adults simply have no real fear of them. In the US at least there is also the relative decline in public health spending and operation. I can recall back when I was in grade school we simply had a yearly presentation about vaccination and then you all lined up went to the gym and got your small pox, polio or whatever was the needed vaccination and a candy afterward. Given the lack of health coverage and the cost of co pays and premiums I can see a lot parents might just never get the opportunity to get a well covered well child visit every year - or afford it. Sure technically you could say got to the county public health office for free or almost free shots... but even in relatively tax friendly (state of) Washington budget cuts killed all but one such office in Whitman county and cut the only existing office down to 3 days a week.

You Google map the place its a big county, and that means up to an hour drive to get to an overcrowded under staffed option (assuming you have a car and the time). I could do it - I had a cool remote tech job (with overnight hours) and we had 2 cars, but a lot people not so much.

Overall I guess while the lunacy from the net, and from people who should know better like Chris Christie is an issue, I think the gradual starvation of the Public Health and Education is more of the root cause.

I was mortified that in helping my Wife's new research associate move from Addis Ababa to Idaho with his family that I need to warn him needed to make sure they all were up to date on vaccinations - Thanks Republicans and Anti Science Vax types for helping to make the US the new Third World with just a big military.

--------------

* I rather doubt most people reading the papers they give you on vaccines have anyway to conceptualize that the most dangerous thing they did with their child was drive in a car with them on the same day they decided not to vaccinate

[Abdülmecid I]

Honestly, you don't need to be a genius to understand how vaccines work. Why such an awkward conspiracy theory is so popular, in a state that's supposed to have no problem with analphabetism, is beyond me.

[Diocle]

Honestly, you don't need to be a genius to understand how vaccines work. Why such an awkward conspiracy theory is so popular, in a state that's supposed to have no problem with analphabetism, is beyond me.

Because vaccines are not free, they have a price and a cost for the state, so probably there is somebody who thinks: why should we take care about millions of poor morons, dilapidating money for them? So the bastard idiots find money to support their lies and the show goes on.

Even in Italy there are groups of bastards trying to spread this crap.