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Thread: The Netherlands on the campaign map

  1. #1

    Default The Netherlands on the campaign map

    Looking at the Netherlands on the campaign map, I noticed some inaccuracies:

    - Utrecht, Groningen and Friesland are named duchies, but are lordships. (The Lordship Groningen being renamed 'Stad en Lande' after it joined the Union of Utrecht, this of course only recognised by the Dutch themselves).
    - Drenthe is not a county, but a lordship.
    - Zeeland is gigantic, including the south of Holland (Rotterdam, Dordrecht), Brabant (Bergen, Breda, Tilburg) and Flanders (Gent, Terneuzen).
    - There is a minor city north of Amsterdam called 'Helder'. The current city of Den Helder, further to the north, didn't become an important port until late 18th c. A better name would be Alkmaar.

    Also, in 1618 Breda was controlled by the Republic, and Gent by the Spanish. And in 1618 there was still a truce with Spain (until 1621), though I suppose war at the start is needed for gameplay reasons.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    Where are the Dutch researchers when you need them ...

    Thanks for your feedback. If there is going to be a patch 6, we could change some of that. Anyone else with background on any of the factions can send us feedback. I had a question years ago about whether the Polish used pike and shot formations but I did not have any responses.

    Edit: What is a Lordship? Was there a lord? What kind of rank did the lord have, if so - was he not a Duke?
    Last edited by Geoffrey of Villehardouin; February 03, 2015 at 12:23 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    A lordship in Dutch would be a 'heerlijkheid'. (Herrlichkeit in German?) A lord would be ranked lower than a count.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    I hope this game gets improved further, cause it's great.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    Below the county is the viscounty and the barony. However, I imagine there were more than 7 viscounties and baronies in the Utrecht Union. Presumably there were at least some counties. So I assume you ar saying that there were other large or larger provinces than the ones whose names we have chosen. How would you call the 7 Dutch provinces we have in the mod? For example what would you use instead of Drenthe?

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    No, not really. Most of the heerlijkheden in the Netherlands were originally part of the bishopric of Utrecht (Sticht) but became basically independent due to the bishops inability to project power and his constant wars against Gelre* and Holland, and were made into heerlijkheden/lordships by the Habsburgs - who didn't create new high noble titles but called themselves 'heer'.

    Of the 7 provinces of the Dutch Republic** there are only 2 counties, and no duchies:
    - The counties of Holland and Zeeland
    - The lordships of Utrecht, Friesland, Overijssel & Drenthe
    - Stad en Lande (or lordship Groningen).

    Drenthe was very unimportant, with basically no cities and was not represented in the States-General (the sovereign council of the Republic). The Duchy of Gelre was represented, making the total of 7 united provinces.

    * Gelre extended all the way to the Zuiderzee (including land owned by Utrecht in the game, incl Apeldoorn), splitting the bishopric in half.
    ** The Union of Utrecht is a bit of difficult name, because it was signed by many of the southern Netherlands also (notably Flanders and Brabant), but they remained or were reconquered by the Spanish.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    Quote Originally Posted by YSH View Post
    The Union of Utrecht is a bit of difficult name, because it was signed by many of the southern Netherlands also (notably Flanders and Brabant), but they remained or were reconquered by the Spanish.
    Thanks for that information. It should be possible to adapt the titles of the 7 provinces closer to your suggestions. I think there is a Duchy of Guelders under Spanish control at game start.

    As for the somewhat awkward term Utrecht Union, I imagine it was favoured for brevity, the alternative of Republic of the Seven United Provinces being a little too long, while United Provinces being too vague, unless United Provinces of the Netherlands was used, again a little too long. At this time the term Dutch as used in English meant German (i.e. Deutch), so Dutch Republic would have been a misnomer. Belgian Confederation (Belgica Foederata) would have been even stranger. Monti had explained the rationale in a post some years ago, I think on the basis that the state was first founded as the Union of Utrecht.

  8. #8
    Kdssow's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: The Netherlands on the campaign map

    Reading this, maybe an 80-years war submod would be cool too! :3

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