Ideas thread?

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

I thought it to be nazi symbol too, becouse it was german nazi symbol during ww2.But people do make mistake, that symbol is faaaar older than nazi germany.

Its like my saying i am a muslim...so people say, ohhh terrorsir right? lol

I hope you guys will consider new factions eventually as mod progresses, you could have done that i guess, but i realise that whn you relise something its never half finished but high quality work.*applous for that*

Still dont be so damn picky, its community work go with the flow.It doesnt need to be 100% superduper.I can easily see Arnor units mix of Gondor and barbarian units.All you need is new textures, you can use existen models in the game.Emergant factions are not made to play with, but to make your game spicy and tougher...

Plz dont get me wrong guys, you are doing EXTREMLY IMPRESSIVE WORK! You can all be proud of your self...I just hope you will stick around, if it takes 2012, so be it...I hardly belive any lotr game will come being better than what you modded now, only graphicly, thats all.By the way, dwarfs look AWSOME!Keep up good work...

[Balbor]

We will feature some extra faction for Custom battles.

For the campaign the game doesn't allow use to do all that we would like. Mainly unable to stop factions going to war. I think its possible to do this in M2TW, and ATW but not BI.

[MasterOfNone]

Seems it is restricted/buggy in ATW too

[cherryfunk]

I can think of something you can do to keep RK and Rohan at peace longer: put more rebels between them. Which means taking away some of their current regions and give them to the 'rebels'.

You should also do this with Harad and the Dunmen -- you've given too much of the map to the factions right at the start of the campaign, so there isn't enough room to expand before running into a neighbor. This makes the opening part of the game less fun.

Also, you could make Umbar its own faction -- you already have the units, it would be an Umbar/Harad mix. Give it a unique unit or two, perhaps based off the RK elite units (Umbar was from the same stock after all) but reskinned to look 'Umbarish'.

Then, you could add some 'rebel' orc/goblin, elf, and dwarf armies, in appropriate places. Orcs in Mordor, Elves in Lorien, Dwarves in the Misty Mtns, etc. This would really make the map more interesting and challenging. Even if you can't let us play them as factions yet, you could let us exterminate them!

Finally, I hope you're continuing to develop the map; you might consider 'blowing up' the map scale, so it has a more epic feel. It's still basically the RTW vanilla scale and that feels too cramped after playing mods with bigger maps.

[cherryfunk]

Here's how I would set up the factions, taking regions away from each so the first part of the campaign is more a struggle to solidfy your kingdom:



You could write this into the backstory by saying that this is a period of upheaval and uncertainly, outlying provinces are rebelling, etc. After all, Gondor lost control of Mordor once before, no reason they couldn't do so again.

Umbar would be relatively easy to set up and would be a fantastic faction to play -- the Black Numenorians, dark masters of the sea, trying to reclaim their mastery over Gondor. That would be a blast!

[Aradan]

Basically what you suggest is just not possible due to lore restrictions. Sorry to dissapoint you, but that's how it is...

Regarding the irritating, never-lasting alliances, there are other ways, not including scripts or game commands, that might improve the situation. But nothing is certain and it will take an incredible amount of effort to 'fix' a hardcoded AI issue, as the way the AI chooses its enemies is.

The map development hasn't stopped, rest assured.

[cherryfunk]

What's a 'lore restriction' and how would it prevent you changing region ownership?

[Aradan]

A lore restriction is something that is written in the books and it is so clear that cannot be altered or omitted in any way at all. FATW team always strives to remain true to the vision of JRRT (as opposed to third party interpretations), to a reasonable extent of course.

For example, since Tolkien clearly states that Gondor and Rohan did share borders near Halifirien, you can't really take Calenhad away from RK...
There are several reason that prohibit the making of Umbar into a faction of its own. But you can always think of it as a client sub-faction to the Haradrim, that provides them with its own exclusive units, like Corsairs or Umbar Guards. (Plus, in your map, you placed Umbar in a wrong position. It should occupy the southernmost region inside the gulf)
Of course, since Lothlorien and Hithaeglir are not included in the map in this version, nothing can really be added there atm, can it?

But please keep suggestions coming. Good ideas spring from discussion after all.

[Paul d]

howdy, aradan, good to see you here, instead of Fourthage.org/forums/

[cherryfunk]

A lore restriction is something that is written in the books and it is so clear that cannot be altered or omitted in any way at all. FATW team always strives to remain true to the vision of JRRT (as opposed to third party interpretations), to a reasonable extent of course.

The game is set 200 years after Tolkien stopped recording events, so you can certainly change borders. Tolkien never described the world of your campaign.

You're obviously willing to run with your own ideas or you wouldn't have picked this time.

There are several reason that prohibit the making of Umbar into a faction of its own.

Such as? You've got about 15 free slots, I can't see any reason you couldn't add Umbar.

[MasterOfNone]

Earl,

Thx for your ideas - I can see you've put some good thought into them. One of the great issues of the mod has always been balancing lore vs. gameplay. We even had people suggest that no cities should start off with fully developed recuitment lines but of course this would have meant that units such as the Guards of the Citadel or Rangers of Ithilien would be a future development and yet known to have existed hundreds of years before the mod

Campaign balance has not yet been started, and it is very likely some changes will be made - but we will try to portray things as best we can with lore in mind. Violating the 'lore' brings the wrath of Tolkien purists down upon us, and as one of our central pillars as a mod is lore accuracy we have to be very cautious about what we do. Few, for example, are willing to accept that Rohan and RK can go to war - but it is unavoidable in a Total War engine.

Adding another faction - even where models already exist - takes a great deal of time and effort as the vast bulk of the work exists in areas people do not see. It is not therefore realistic to add such a faction at this time as it would delay the next release by some months. We have cut down on factions from our original ideas (I think we had about 20 listed and then 14 listed and now even less) and it has allowed us to make releases more swiftly.

Ideally of course it would be nice to see Khand, Umbar and maybe even Dol Amroth as factions but with time restraints, hardcoded limits and the fact that they will neighbour and go to war with their parent cultures/factions, makes it a difficult thing to achieve.

When it comes to campaign balancing (some time away yet!) we shall certainly consider your points. Thx.

[Aradan]

@ paul: Hey paul! See, I only have 4 posts here...

@cherryfunk: There is a draft of a book called The New Shadow (also the full title of the mod) written by JRRT, which gives some insight into what hapenned in the early years after Aragorn's death. Having said that, it's natural of course that sometimes the team has to improvise, but always based on reason. Following your rationale one can argue that a terrible plague had fallen upon Gondor and all it's inhabitants were killed or that a war had broken out between Elves and Dale or...
But speculatiions must always have a solid basis. If you can give a good reason why Gondor would have abandoned Calenhad and Lossarnach, why Rohan would abandon the Wold etc and support it with a hint from a book, then the arguement would be fine.
Regarding Umbar:
a) because it would mean much more work for the team. A faction is not just retexturing other models and finding appropriate names. There has to be a full roster of units (which won't be mere copies of existing ones of course), which must be perfectly balanced, then you gotta create appropriate sounds, interface, text, traits&ancs, then insert those into campaign and then balance the new faction with every other faction in game.
b) Because the existence of a couple of specialised units doesn't warrant a 'faction' status for Umbar. You need more than that.
c) Because according to lore Umbar was never an independent nation. It was autonomous and subject to Harad. True, they did enjoy a certain extent of freedom, but little more than Dol Amroth enjoyed in Gondor.
d) Because if you place Umbar there as a separate faction, then what you'll instantly have is a war between them and Harad, which would unbalance the game in that Harad would be weakened and would not focus its attention on RK, which would make RK overly strong. Also with the war between Umbar and harad the whole purpose of Corsair Invasion would be failed. What invasion?! Harad just destroyed Umbar! But Harad needs Umbar in order to provide a counter-weight to RK's fleet.

There is more, but escape the purpose of the thread. Sorry for the long post too!

EDIT: Pal answered as I was typing. You can politely ignore my post, and just read his...

[cherryfunk]

Campaign balance has not yet been started, and it is very likely some changes will be made - but we will try to portray things as best we can with lore in mind. Violating the 'lore' brings the wrath of Tolkien purists down upon us, and as one of our central pillars as a mod is lore accuracy we have to be very cautious about what we do. Few, for example, are willing to accept that Rohan and RK can go to war - but it is unavoidable in a Total War engine.

Of course this is true, but which is worse: that they go to war, or that you 'fudge' your 'future history' and put rebel regions between them? Obviously the second is the lesser of two evils. You've written before that you've been desperately searching for a way to keep them at peace. The most obvious and simplest way is to put a buffer between them. Seems like a no-brainer to me, and I'm sure the old man himself would agree.

I don't want to come across as disliking this mod; you've done some truly beaufitul work with it, and your units are I think perhaps the best I've ever seen. Tremendous work. But Rohan is the faction I most wanted to play, and when the RK comes swarming over the border and starts burning and pillaging, it's a little hard to stay in the 'spirit' of Middle Earth, you know?

Also, reducing the number of regions of all the factions would require more of a 'build up' period where the factions have to expand and fortify their territory. For me this is one of the most fun aspects of the game and FA:TW is missing that to some extent...

If you can give a good reason why Gondor would have abandoned Calenhad and Lossarnach, why Rohan would abandon the Wold etc and support it with a hint from a book, then the arguement would be fine.

I could give you a hundred reasons. And no I can't support them from the book, because Tolkien didn't describe this period. This is a game you guys are making, not a sequel to LoTR -- don't sacrifice gameplay for the sake of a text that doesn't even exist.

[Aradan]

The gameplay VS lore issue is a big one and needs quite a lot of talk...

Even using the no-brainer rebel province buffer idea, that would only delay the war between Rohan and RK by 10-15 turns maximum, depending on how many prvinces you insert between them. One rebel province equals a delay of 5 turns maybe... It's just how the AI works.
On the other hand, there *are* ways that can prevent this war or at least stall it for a while. But they have to be tested (and implemented if they work well enough) after the next release.

I'm really glad you like the mod so much and you are that interested in it. And please don't think I'm flaming you or something... My first and biggest turn-off in FATW is exactly this stupid war that RK usually wages against Rohan (or the other way round). The team appreciates ANY ideas, suggestions and criticism, so please offer them.

[Arakorn]

Good ideas there Cherryfunk...

[cherryfunk]

The New Shadow would have been set in Gondor, or at least would have begun there, in the house of Borlas, the younger son of Beregond, the guardsman of the Citadel who became Captain of the White Company, Faramir's guard, after the War of the Ring....

Borlas was concerned with rumors of a strange and secret cult gaining popularity in Gondor. It had become fashionable among Gondorian boys to play at being Orcs, doing Orcish things (such as destroying trees for no apparent reason). But now men were whispering of a new leader, Herumor (which is Quenya for "dark lord"), around whom a cult had formed (Tolkien called it a Satanic cult, and presumably it would have been a revival of Morgothian worship). The story proceeds no farther than Borlas' receipt of an invitation from Saelon, a younger man who grew up with Borlas' son, to attend a secret meeting (most undoubtedly of Herumor's followers). It is not clear whether Saelon would have been a member of the cult attempting to recruit (or murder) Borlas, or if he was engaged in some campaign against the cult and required Borlas' aid.

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/31389

Interesting stuff. Tolkien's brief foray into the Fourth Age actually supports the concept of Gondor splintering and losing territories to some sort of rebellion. I think making Mordor a neutral ('rebel') area would both make the mod more fun (at least in my opinion) and is not out of line with Tolkien's plans...

Tolkien himself described it like so:

"I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the downfall of Sauron, but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace and justice and prosperity would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing."

[MasterOfNone]

Rest assured we are aware of this and have done our homework - and way back in 2005 too

[cherryfunk]

I think Tolkien's idea of a 'New Shadow' raises a very interesting possibility; a new faction based around the southern lands of Mordor, centered around the fertile plain of Nurn.

We know that there was a large population of men around the Sea of Nurnen in southern Mordor, who raised food for Sauron's war machine. After the war, it would have come under the stewardship of the Reunited Kingdom. But Gondor's population was depleted, and Aragorn established a policy of resettling the northern kingdom of Arnor. So the southern territories of Mordor, Nurn, and Harad would have been neglected, and lightly garrisoned.

When the 'New Shadow' rose, perhaps it quickly gained power in these lands, where memories of Sauron were strong, and where powerful leaders rose to repress the people once again and turn them to darkness. And so a new power arose in the fertile core of Mordor, and overthrew its Gondorian stewards. This faction would have both men and orcs -- as you currently have the Dunlendings, but it would make more sense for the people of Mordor to ally with the orcs, than for the proud Dunlendings. This would be a Mordor reborn, a faction centrally located to be a challenge for the Reunited Kingdom, Harad AND the Easterlings.

[Aradan]

Nice idea!

[Draugdur]

We know that there was a large population of men around the Sea of Nurnen in southern Mordor, who raised food for Sauron's war machine. After the war, it would have come under the stewardship of the Reunited Kingdom.But Gondor's population was depleted, and Aragorn established a policy of resettling the northern kingdom of Arnor. So the southern territories of Mordor, Nurn, and Harad would have been neglected, and lightly garrisoned.

Hm, if I remember correctly, it's said in LotR that lands around Nurnen were "given" to the people already living there...So wouldn't this mean these lands were never actually a part of RK? This occurred to me as I played the mod for the first time, but I was too damn impressed to pay attention to such details

can think of something you can do to keep RK and Rohan at peace longer: put more rebels between them. Which means taking away some of their current regions and give them to the 'rebels'.

I don't think this would help. I'm no modder, but based on the experience from previous campaign I've played, using rebels as a 'buffer' would actually increase the chance for potential conflict, 'cause of that "sphere-of-influence" stuff, i.e. if, say, RK would advance a bit faster then Rohan and take both buffer provinces, you'd have a war immediately. As I played with RK, I managed to maintain an alliance with Rohan for some 50 turns or more (i.e. 'till I ended the campaign); on the other hand, Harad and Rhun broke their alliances with me (Dunland) one turn after we reached each other, 'cause we all moved against RK. And I think this is a common RTW behaviour, 'cause it happened to me over and over, regardless of the mod.