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Thread: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

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    cenkiss's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Whenever a new fossil is found in the world, anthropologists claim that human migration began earlier than they thought. Why is this migration is presented as an irrefutable fact? Why could not it be assumed that humans were just there in the location they were found, not moved thousands of miles from central africa? Do we know about these treks? Or migration ways? That looks like a huge leap of reason to me.
    The relatively untouched nature of africa may lead to more fossils, even then those fossils are few to make huge assumptions.

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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    Whenever a new fossil is found in the world, anthropologists claim that human migration began earlier than they thought. Why is this migration is presented as an irrefutable fact? Why could not it be assumed that humans were just there in the location they were found, not moved thousands of miles from central africa? Do we know about these treks? Or migration ways? That looks like a huge leap of reason to me.
    The relatively untouched nature of africa may lead to more fossils, even then those fossils are few to make huge assumptions.
    Overall it is Africa that fits the data best - in every way Genetics, Archeology fossil etc.

    I'm not sure what mean by "relatively untouched nature of Africa may lead to more fossils"? Lots of the US is untouched and owned by the Federal government yet no compelling archeological evidence has ever turned up in the US (Canada or Brazil etc).

    to make huge assumptions
    Its the best narrative that fits the known facts as of now. Could it change if new evidence is discovered - of course. But to get back to multiple independent origins you would need first all modern genetics to be ignored and a profound number of new fossils to be discovered. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - but sometimes it is.
    Last edited by conon394; February 02, 2015 at 11:44 AM.
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    G-Megas-Doux's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Homo Sapiens are assumed to have moved out of Africa, Homo Errectus gave rise to several off shoots which Homo Sapiens who evolved in Africa are one of them, further Homo Sapiens are shown to have admixture and bread with other descendants of Homo Errectus when they expanded due to migration they bread with the Neanderthals in Europe and the Denisovians in Asia. So Genetically modern Humans are thought to be Homo Sapiens Spaiens that came from Africa according to genetic testing. The genetic tests include mitacondrial and y-dna tests as well as autosomal dna tests to identify common heritage with other earlier humans that we have been able to extract dna from. It is a working theory that is always being adjusted.

    Formally they thought Africa was the oldest as they had done the most archaeology of undisturbed ancient sites. By itself that would be a spurious idea as Africa has historically been the least industrialised and urbanised area of human habitation on the planet so any potential archaeological evidence in Europe, Asia and India would likely have been destroyed due to so much activity over the centuries. It is only with the current genetic evidence that more weight can be attached to the theory, however it is still unknown where Homo Errectus came from.



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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Avaible fossils, genetic evidence and other remains of empirical data fit best the theory that modern humans first emerged in East Africa to migrate and settle in the other continents

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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    Do we know about these treks?
    I think you might be imagining something here that is unnecessary. I'm sure there was some trekking, a few people every few generations moving a few kilometers in search of new resources would be enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by cenkiss View Post
    That looks like a huge leap of reason to me.
    It really isn't, take a look a the Wiki page linked in the second post.

    Just to play devil's advocate though, depending on how you define human or modern human, one could potentially argue a Southwest Asian origin. It is possible that Homo erectus first evolved there. Second, there is no single clear point when our ancestors became modern humans. We tend to talk about anatomically modern humans (who weren't exactly) who were around for a long time before what we think of as modern human behaviors developed. The trouble is determining whether these behaviors were a result of some genetically based cognitive break-through or cultural/technological advancement. It was probably an interplay between both, but hard to separate out since we don't even understand all the mechanisms in modern humans. There is evidence for certain modern behaviors evolving in African which led to humans spreading into Southwest Asia where many more modern behaviors developed (The Upper Paleolithic Revolution), followed by various radiations out of the Middle East and back migrations into Africa. It is possible that it was actually hybridization out of Africa which was the catalyst for for these advances. The evidence that spurred such possible considerations is very recently published. For example, these extensive back-migrations into Africa only very recently came to light.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I think you might be imagining something here that is unnecessary. I'm sure there was some trekking, a few people every few generations moving a few kilometers in search of new resources would be enough.
    ...
    Additionally hunter gatherers would cover far more ground to feed themselves so changing location would be very natural to them. Hunting parties would easily roam even farther than the whole group thus it would be pretty known where to move next so relocations by far more than a few kilometres wouldn't be that difficult, particularly when the territory is not already occupied by other humans.

    Even with other humans like Neanderthals there is a distinct difference in diet so modern humans could have found niches in already occupied lands without contesting food sources aka overlapping territories wouldn't inevitably lead to conflict (though the fact that neanderthals were more dependant on meat and apparently no indication of fishing has been found would have limited them more).
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Yes, genetics are all we need to prove that the origin of the current human gene pool is in africa. Where we came from before then is less established but presumably it follows from the numerous transitional humanoid fossils we've found in Africa.

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    G-Megas-Doux's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Not all early hominids were found inside Africa.

    http://www.historyofinformation.com/...ed.php?id=4043

    People could easily travel wherever there was the possibility of survival and a place where they could live. Africa appears to have been a wellspring for certain branches of our ancestry and also seems fortunate to have a huge amount of land that is not covered in forest or buildings that we have managed to find more fossils.

    It is only the most recent branch that appears to have developed in Africa but as stated earlier the most recent branch is descended from Homo Erectus as are the other branches that Homo Sapiens interbred with and we are unsure where Homo Erectus came from.



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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?


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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I think you might be imagining something here that is unnecessary. I'm sure there was some trekking, a few people every few generations moving a few kilometers in search of new resources would be enough.

    It really isn't, take a look a the Wiki page linked in the second post.

    Just to play devil's advocate though, depending on how you define human or modern human, one could potentially argue a Southwest Asian origin. It is possible that Homo erectus first evolved there. Second, there is no single clear point when our ancestors became modern humans. We tend to talk about anatomically modern humans (who weren't exactly) who were around for a long time before what we think of as modern human behaviors developed. The trouble is determining whether these behaviors were a result of some genetically based cognitive break-through or cultural/technological advancement. It was probably an interplay between both, but hard to separate out since we don't even understand all the mechanisms in modern humans. There is evidence for certain modern behaviors evolving in African which led to humans spreading into Southwest Asia where many more modern behaviors developed (The Upper Paleolithic Revolution), followed by various radiations out of the Middle East and back migrations into Africa. It is possible that it was actually hybridization out of Africa which was the catalyst for for these advances. The evidence that spurred such possible considerations is very recently published. For example, these extensive back-migrations into Africa only very recently came to light.


    Most likely reason in my opinion.
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Most likely reason in my opinion.
    I think so too. I think they had some cognitive advantages the first anatomically modern humans didn't, but the first anatomically modern humans had some the neanderthals didn't, particularly relating to symbolic thought and language, but when they came together... Okay, it's just speculation and educated guesses until we have more data.

    Quoting Greg Cochran:

    Finally, there are papers out on the long-term consequences of Neanderthal admixture – one by Sriram Sankararaman in Nature, the other by Benjamin Vernot in Science.

    The general picture is that anatomically modern humans exiting Africa mixed, to a degree, with Neanderthals. Some of the Neanderthal alleles were neutral, some were disadvantageous in modern humans and were lost fairly rapidly, and a few had favorable fitness consequences and have become common. All that was highly likely a priori. I would say it was obvious, if that word meant anything. It should have been the default assumption from 1927 on, after Haldane calculated the probability of success for a single copy of an advantageous allele. Wasn’t, though.

    Exactly which kinds of Neanderthal alleles would give advantage was less obvious. I suspected that Neanderthals would be resistant to local pathogens, and that such genetic defenses could easily pay off in modern humans moving into Eurasia. It looks as if some of that happened – there is a good chance that some common HLA alleles in Eurasians originated in Neanderthals, and some Neanderthal variants involved with defense against viruses have become common.

    I thought that anatomically modern humans might have picked up alleles that dealt better with the big swings in day length characteristic of northern latitudes. In an earlier talk, Sakararaman mentioned a common Neanderthal version of the CLOCK gene in Europeans, but that doesn’t show up in the paper, so maybe that turned out to be a mistake.

    It looks as if both Europeans and East Asians have picked up Neanderthal versions of several keratin filament genes, involved in hair and skin formation. Not fixed, but pretty common. This might have something to do with the non-kinky hair found in most Eurasians.

    Some of these common Neanderthal alleles may have some effect on the central nervous system, but as usual, we have such a poor understanding of gene function that it’s hard to tell. A Neanderthal variant of TANC1 is common in Europeans, and that gene is thought to regulate dendritic spines and excitatory synapses. Looking at the broader question, an unusual number of selected Neanderthal alleles were found that are associated with major depression. So maybe those alleles affected mood regulation. Perhaps depression is part of a strategy for dealing with long winters.

    There are gene deserts in which you find very few Neanderthal alleles, presumably because those alleles didn’t work well in modern humans. There is a dearth of testes-associated gene, not too surprising because they evolve particularly rapidly and are therefore more likely than average to be incompatible with a sister group that diverged some time ago. The area around FOXP2 is such a desert: Neanderthals were perhaps worse at speech, or any rate different in some way that didn’t mesh.

    There are some signs of reproductive incompatibility with modern humans, but obviously not enough to prevent adaptive introgression. David Reich suggests that Neanderthals were “at the very edge of being biologically incompatible”. I doubt that, for two reasons. First, the known cases of species intersterility in primates all took longer to develop. Bonobos and chimps manage, and they’ve been separated something like 800,000 years. In addition, there is evidence that African hunter-gatherers (Bushmen and Pygmies) picked up some genetic material from an unknown archaic group, one that split off considerably earlier than Neanderthals, something like 900,000 years.

    Some Neanderthal haplotypes are risk alleles for various diseases. Chris Stringer said “Studies have also already been published which show that humans outside of Africa are more vulnerable to Type 2 Diabetes, and that is because we bred with Neanderthals, while those who stayed inside Africa didn’t.” Of course that is not actually true. In the US, blacks have Type 2 diabetes rates that are about twice as high as whites. Pima Indians have incredibly high rates, but they have almost exactly the same amount of Neanderthal ancestry as Europeans. I would bet that the selective environment of the past few thousand years matters more than Neanderthal ancestry, or the lack of it. That said, Neanderthal alleles can play a role in that selective process.

    In our book, we suggested that the big bang of the Upper Paleolithic, the dramatic increase in cultural complexity seen in Europe some 40,000 years ago, might have been triggered, at least in part, by an influx of adaptive Neanderthal alleles. Right now, from the evidence in these papers, I’m not seeing a strong case for that. Of course we only understand what half these genes are doing, so the fat lady hasn’t finished singing, but we may well be wrong. Of course that dramatic increase in cultural complexity did happen, and for that matter, it is still true that average IQ scores are quite low in sub-Saharan Africa and its diaspora. But IQ scores are also low in populations such as Australian Aborigines that have about the same amount of Neanderthal admixture as other people outside of Africa – so at minimum the story is more complicated.
    The book he refers to is The 10,000 Year Explosion.

    Back-migrants into Africa were quite successful it seems, particularly because of certain gene-culture advantages, as in you can't take full advantage of the cultural advantage without certain genes. The known ones in this case are related to diet but there may be some related to disposition. There is a back-migrant component associated with the Bantu expansion.

    I honestly hope I don't have to get into a discussion about average IQs for having quoted Cochran, but since I know it's a sensitive issue, I'd also like to point out that various sub-Saharan African populations and Australian Aborigines simply have different advantages on average. For example, an Australian Aborigine with a much lower IQ than a European will still almost certainly outperform the European if the task involves spatial memory. The reason why? Most likely if you get lost in the Australian outback, you don't pass on your genes.

    EDIT: I also don't think it was high IQs that made the difference, probably higher than before but not what we'd call above average today. It's my understanding that IQ that is within the normal range of variation for modern humans as a species is not correlated with success as a hunter-gatherer. I think IQ, whatever it is that we've come to measure that we call IQ, is something that at the higher levels was only selected for once settled societies got to the point to allow for specialization. Actually the Wiki summery of Cochran and Harpending's book explains this pretty well:

    Cochran and Harpending put forward the idea that the development of agriculture has caused an enormous increase in the rate of human evolution, including numerous evolutionary adaptations to the different challenges and lifestyles that resulted. Moreover, they argue that these adaptations have varied across different human populations, depending on factors such as when the various groups developed agriculture, and the extent to which they mixed genetically with other population groups.

    Such changes, they argue, include not just well-known physical and biological adaptations such as skin colour, disease resistance, and lactose tolerance, but also personality and cognitive adaptations that are starting to emerge from genetic research. These may include tendencies towards (for example) reduced physical endurance, enhanced long-term planning, or increased docility, all of which may have been counter-productive in hunter-gatherer societies, but become favoured adaptations in a world of agriculture and its resulting trade, governments and urbanization.
    Last edited by sumskilz; August 25, 2015 at 06:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    honestly hope I don't have to get into a discussion about average IQs for having quoted Cochrane, but since I know it's a sensitive issue, I'd also like to point out that various sub-Saharan African populations and Australian Aborigines simply have different advantages on average. For example, an Australian Aborigine with a much lower IQ than a European will still almost certainly outperform the European if the task involves spatial memory. The reason why? Most likely if you get lost in the Australian outback, you don't pass on your genes.
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Cochran and Harpending put forward the idea that the development of agriculture has caused an enormous increase in the rate of human evolution, including numerous evolutionary adaptations to the different challenges and lifestyles that resulted. Moreover, they argue that these adaptations have varied across different human populations, depending on factors such as when the various groups developed agriculture, and the extent to which they mixed genetically with other population groups.

    Such changes, they argue, include not just well-known physical and biological adaptations such as skin colour, disease resistance, and lactose tolerance, but also personality and cognitive adaptations that are starting to emerge from genetic research. These may include tendencies towards (for example) reduced physical endurance, enhanced long-term planning, or increased docility, all of which may have been counter-productive in hunter-gatherer societies, but become favoured adaptations in a world of agriculture and its resulting trade, governments and urbanization.
    Find this as possibly being very real actually.

    Think about this even when there is no real aggression involved. The reality is there might even be increased aggression and violence through passive-aggression, jealousy, envy, conspiring, social oppression, and anything else like this. Realize that agriculture had a huge boom on Patriarchy.

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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I think so too. I think they had some cognitive advantages the first anatomically modern humans didn't, but the first anatomically modern humans had some the neanderthals didn't, particularly relating to symbolic thought and language, but when they came together... Okay, it's just speculation and educated guesses until we have more data.
    Funny thing is if you would have asked me less than 10 years ago I was FIRMLY in the camp that Neanderthals were a completely difference species we simply out competed and forced into extinction.
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Funny thing is if you would have asked me less than 10 years ago I was FIRMLY in the camp that Neanderthals were a completely difference species we simply out competed and forced into extinction.
    From what I've heard, that might be because apparently American researchers have long favoured the view that Neanderthals were primitive brutes. Glad to hear that that seems to be changing.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    From what I've heard, that might be because apparently American researchers have long favoured the view that Neanderthals were primitive brutes. Glad to hear that that seems to be changing.
    The Prussian anthropologist Rudolf Virchow naturally thought the first Neanderthal discovered was most likely a deformed Frenchman. When I was in school, the idea of even Homo heidelbergensis already being capable of symbolic and proto-religious thought was starting to come into vogue. Some of that may have been the pendulum swinging too far the other way, I'm not sure yet. Not my speciality, but I follow it a little bit.

    Almost nobody thought that Humans and Neanderthals could produce viable offspring. There had already been some potential hybrid specimens found, but the fact that they died young meant few were convinced. It was Svante Pääbo against the world, and when he was the first to sequence Neanderthal mtDNA, everyone was like great but you seem to have disproved your hybrid theory because none of it is the same as human mtDNA. It started to become like a joke, but then when he finally managed to sequence an entire Neanderthal genome, he had the last laugh. That's how I remember it all going down anyway. About previous arguments regarding the nature of Neanderthals, sometimes there are academics that have so heavily invested in particular arguments that they have to die before certain paradigms will fall by the wayside. Almost like their former students don't even want to completely go against them either.

    So anyway, there still hasn't been any Neanderthal mtDNA found in modern humans. Was Neanderthal mtDNA selected against or were female hybrids not viable? I don't know what the better guess is there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Almost nobody thought that Humans and Neanderthals could produce viable offspring. There had already been some potential hybrid specimens found, but the fact that they died young meant few were convinced. It was Svante Pääbo against the world, and when he was the first to sequence Neanderthal mtDNA, everyone was like great but you seem to have disproved your hybrid theory because none of it is the same as human mtDNA. It started to become like a joke, but then when he finally managed to sequence an entire Neanderthal genome, he had the last laugh. That's how I remember it all going down anyway. About previous arguments regarding the nature of Neanderthals, sometimes there are academics that have so heavily invested in particular arguments that they have to die before certain paradigms will fall by the wayside. Almost like their former students don't even want to completely go against them either.

    So anyway, there still hasn't been any Neanderthal mtDNA found in modern humans. Was Neanderthal mtDNA selected against or were female hybrids not viable? I don't know what the better guess is there.
    Couldn't it just be that "hybrids", for lack of a better term, ended up with their Neanderthal mothers and the lines went extinct along with the Neanderthals? Especially if they were the result of, shall we say, short term relationships.

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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visna View Post
    Couldn't it just be that "hybrids", for lack of a better term, ended up with their Neanderthal mothers and the lines went extinct along with the Neanderthals? Especially if they were the result of, shall we say, short term relationships.
    Yeah, this has crossed my mind, and it does make a lot of sense really.

    To clarify for anyone who might not get what you're saying, children of "short term relationships" would end up with their mother's group. In which case, the offspring of cross-pairings who were born into anatomically modern human groups would all have the mtDNA of their anatomically modern mothers. This of course suggests something about the type of interactions that took place - clandestine meetings and/or rape rather than something more like intermarriage and/or women being taken as the spoils of war. It probably suggests a higher level of xenophobia I think, which is not surprising.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #20
    norse's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Why are humans assumed to have moved out of africa?

    As far as I know there is also no Neanderthal Y chromosomes that have been found yet.

    However there have been some very archaic Y chromosomes found in contemporary Africans and it is not from Homo Sapiens.

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