[New experimental stuff]More challenging, BAI friendly battles - 13.07.2015 update

[MagicCuboid]

Inspired by Krixux, I've made my own blind test. Rather than a set value of 200, I've gone ahead and doubled the visibility of every unit. This means heavy infantry have a LOS of 80, light inf have 100, heavy cav 120, and light cav 200. I've done this for every unit.

I haven't tried these values out yet. However, I'd guess LOS of 80/100 for infantry should be enough for their behavior to take your main line into account. I'll be "testing" this the rest of the day on campaign, but if anyone else would like to try, here's the link:

@statsVisibility.pack

Just use this instead of KAM's experimental, as I edited his pack directly and only changed the visibility.

[zonks40]

Inspired by Krixux, I've made my own blind test. Rather than a set value of 200, I've gone ahead and doubled the visibility of every unit. This means heavy infantry have a LOS of 80, light inf have 100, heavy cav 120, and light cav 200. I've done this for every unit.

I haven't tried these values out yet. However, I'd guess LOS of 80/100 for infantry should be enough for their behavior to take your main line into account. I'll be "testing" this the rest of the day on campaign, but if anyone else would like to try, here's the link:

@statsVisibility.pack

Just use this instead of KAM's experimental, as I edited his pack directly and only changed the visibility.

These ranges you have listed for the LOS, are they comparable to the ranges of missile units? if so, that would mean a unit would not be able to see the archer unit that is firing on it. 135 arrow vs 100 Infantry LOS.

[Jatischar92]

Inspired by Krixux, I've made my own blind test. Rather than a set value of 200, I've gone ahead and doubled the visibility of every unit. This means heavy infantry have a LOS of 80, light inf have 100, heavy cav 120, and light cav 200. I've done this for every unit.

I haven't tried these values out yet. However, I'd guess LOS of 80/100 for infantry should be enough for their behavior to take your main line into account. I'll be "testing" this the rest of the day on campaign, but if anyone else would like to try, here's the link:

@statsVisibility.pack

Just use this instead of KAM's experimental, as I edited his pack directly and only changed the visibility.

I am trying to load this pack (last in order ofc) but get stuck in splash-screen, some incompatibility? Not using any other mods

[FlashHeart07]

I am trying to load this pack (last in order ofc) but get stuck in splash-screen, some incompatibility? Not using any other mods

Since it overwrites the main files in DeI it should be loaded first.

[Krixux]

Inspired by Krixux, I've made my own blind test. Rather than a set value of 200, I've gone ahead and doubled the visibility of every unit. This means heavy infantry have a LOS of 80, light inf have 100, heavy cav 120, and light cav 200. I've done this for every unit.

I haven't tried these values out yet. However, I'd guess LOS of 80/100 for infantry should be enough for their behavior to take your main line into account. I'll be "testing" this the rest of the day on campaign, but if anyone else would like to try, here's the link:

@statsVisibility.pack

Just use this instead of KAM's experimental, as I edited his pack directly and only changed the visibility.

cool very cool !
I gave values above 100 though

with vh inf lowest = 100
h inf =115
(...)
sear inf = 130 to 150
(some)...sword/elite inf = 160

missile = between 140 and 200

vh Cav = 160
v light cav = 250 (!) = those buggers are eating my slingers alive (lol)

it does the trick



ps
still looking for hidden stuff in data...
(found something ...surprise....)
my eyes are pouring from their sockets...
i'll call it a night
:p

[MagicCuboid]

Yup, as some predicted my values didn't produce great results. Enemy would still reliably play "follow the leader". I'll bump it up to your values Krix

[Kurisu Paifuaa]

It doesn't seem any different to mass selection and paste, how is it used?

You can apply a mathematical expression instead of just a flat value... same as a spreadsheet function.

Let's say you wanted to decrease a value by 10% across the board, while maintaining relative differences between different units... you'd enter x = (x * -.10). Of course, you can still just enter a constant as well (same as copy/paste).

[rjacko10]

still looking for hidden stuff in data...
(found something ...surprise....)
my eyes are pouring from their sockets...
i'll call it a night
:p

What's this... a cliff hanger?

Tune in tomorrow to find out more ...

[Butan]

Do you guys know what this table is about and if its used?
Or its obsolete and only the units spot values are used? Or a mix?

[Shaggy1973]

If the spotting distance theory helps AI to use cavalry you could go back to having slightly longer battles (although I thought they were too slow before).

The missile units weren't used too well before either

[zonks40]

You can apply a mathematical expression instead of just a flat value... same as a spreadsheet function.

Let's say you wanted to decrease a value by 10% across the board, while maintaining relative differences between different units... you'd enter x = (x * -.10). Of course, you can still just enter a constant as well (same as copy/paste).

Thanks for the help mate, will come in very handy

[Shaggy1973]

Guys !

I am changing and testing BLIND (!) here !

I really have NO clue what those values mean
I only suppose they affect "detection"

modifications in spoiler:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

what I see however is that , in custom battles , flanking becomes increasingly difficult for me.
(I truly hope to have something here, and not only my imagination lol )

It seams that one of the values is about "priority"

- one of my Socii Equites although ordered to, and already engaged with an AI Socii Equites, it breaks regularly the attack and is going (continuously) for the AI general. !!!
maybe because "it has a priority for this" ????


I am still looking for this
in data_Rome2
there is ton of stuff there and little or (mostly) no info...
keep you all posted

here is the modification for Rome auxiliary:

Rome_land_units
with
visibility_spotting _range _minimum = 200
tree =200
scrub = 300

try a costom battle with this try mod (and DeI only)Attachment 320626:


rome vs rome
each

4 socii hastatii
3 accensi
2 socii equites

???????
change values as you see fit...

edit

in
data_rome2
db
battle_entities_tables
battle_entities

found:
charge_distance_adopt_charge_pose
and:

charge_distance_pick_target <------- ( pick_target ) ?

priority or distance of picking target ?
might solve AI unit lingering "un aware " of my Cav just in their left?
...extracting and changing values
testing

entities changed to 50 (from 35 and 42 ) =
Attachment 320627

OK I gave this a test and have to say that the AI army does seem to act more coherently as a full group. There were cavalry skirmishes on the flanks. Missiles protected behind a heavy infantry line.

As my skirmishers began contact, their whole army reacted and engaged.

Looks pretty damn good.

Won a close victory on hard difficulty.

[MagicCuboid]

Butan, that is probably a global modifier to spotting distance based on the skill the unit has! If it works the same, we might be able to release a submod that only edits that table instead of every unit in land_units haha

[Butan]

I still wonder where would spotting skill would come from. There is no scouting levels afaik, thats why I also think it might be obsolete.
Still as you said, it might be active enough so that we can put minimum/maximum values to every units individual spotting values.

[MagicCuboid]

"average_scouting" "elite_scouting" etc. is a passive skill given to units under a column in land_units. I assume the game references them, because Rome 2 invented scouting distances, but I could be wrong.

[Butan]

You're right, they must be both used.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Now what I dont understand is why they have spotting distance attributed to them in "land_units" and a scouting level attributed which gives them differents spotting distances (often much better except "not a scout").
Maybe one is "hiding strenght" and the other is "spotting strenght"? Or might be they are the same, and the best value is used, simply.
And I believe the "minimum/maximum" visibility means at what distance non-hidden units become visible with the line of sight system (combined with battle realism probably, and possibly a real-time multi check).


Might be wrong on more than one element.
Krixux should know

[MagicCuboid]

Hah no Butan, I think you're right. scrub_spotting, tree_spotting, etc. seem pretty clearly to say to me that those are separate ranges at which hidden enemies are spotted, depending on their cover. For that reason, I've left those at vanilla levels in the pack I released.

As for why there are two values, this is common in Total War games. Units are assigned "relative" values for balancing, and then these secondary tables are quick ways to alter every single unit in some way, thus altering game mechanics as a whole rather than unit-to-unit balance.

[Ritterlichvon86]

If the spotting distance theory helps AI to use cavalry you could go back to having slightly longer battles (although I thought they were too slow before).

The missile units weren't used too well before either

Sorry but this is not the point about why long battles don't work. The AI will still aggress 99% of its melee force on the getgo, never flank their missiles, and rarely ever flank a cavalry unit more than one time. Even if it keeps it in reserve, that cavalry will aggress once, and then behave much like elephants. Fight to die or aggress the next nearby unit once won.

[zonks40]

I think one is the distance that the unit can be spotted, the other the ability to spot, I think the best way to test that theory is to see what the value is for Elephants in scrub.

[Butan]

I think one is the distance that the unit can be spotted, the other the ability to spot, I think the best way to test that theory is to see what the value is for Elephants in scrub.

I think both tables are the ability to spot, because strangely, you can see in that screen that every units with "elite scouting" have the same values, and its the same for every scouting level. I thought at first like you, that it was their "visibility" and that it would be somehow relative to their in-game size and appearance, but you can see that (for example) a mothering giant ballista has an inferior value to javelinmen so it cant be that.
Then maybe as MagicCuboid said the secondary table (hiding_spotting_values) overrides every units spotting levels with a minimum of editing.