[New experimental stuff]More challenging, BAI friendly battles - 13.07.2015 update

[McCarronXLD]

Sure you could do that but that is extremely risky. The thinner you make your lines the more likely the AI is able to chew through them (and they are quite able to) and once you have a hole in your lines and no reserves it is all over.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Sure you could do that but that is extremely risky. The thinner you make your lines the more likely the AI is able to chew through them (and they are quite able to) and once you have a hole in your lines and no reserves it is all over.

I don't have any experience using barbarian units, but with both Roman and Greek troops, even a thin line three deep has not failed to keep the enemy in place long enough for me to successfully flank.

Again, their are extremely few reasons you should not be able to flank the enemy successfully. As long as you handle your troops well in battle, most maneuvers shouldn't be very difficult.

[TheRazaman]

Sure you could do that but that is extremely risky. The thinner you make your lines the more likely the AI is able to chew through them (and they are quite able to) and once you have a hole in your lines and no reserves it is all over.

There's no punching a hole through individual units. Stretching out into a thin line actually allows your units to holdout longer (but not kill as well as one with more depth).

Also I'll do further testing with this when KAM updates it tonight/tomorrow.

[Drowsy]

Ummm. Sure i guess it works. But a thin 3 man deep line just to use your remaining force to flank instead of using them as a reserve to refresh the 3 man deep front line is gamey and frankly science fiction, as the men holding the line would never accept this, not when they have other options.

U'll take plenty of casualties using the maniples and checkered formations while 'attempting' to flank with aux cav/skirmishers.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Ummm. Sure i guess it works. But a thin 3 man deep line just to use your remaining force to flank instead of using them as a reserve to refresh the 3 man deep front line is gamey and frankly science fiction, as the men holding the line would never accept this, not when they have other options.

U'll take plenty of casualties using the maniples and checkered formations while 'attempting' to flank with aux cav/skirmishers.

Unlike in real life, in Rome II, soldiers don't complain when you put them into situations that look like suicide.

Coincidently, there are historical examples of men following a charismatic commander into situations they would not follow a different commander into.

So saying that' it's sciencefiction is not entirely accurate.

Is it unlikely? Yes.

But how many times would my situation of a line three men deep happen even in Rome II? Your questioning of the matter is, frankly, pointless. Both from an in game perspective, as well as in real life.

Edit: Missed Butan's reply...
Yes, like I said I've done this with both Roman troops (polybian era and marian) as well as starting and theuros reform greek units.

These troops all have solid compositions, and can hold the line well.

I do it because I know they can, I would not attempt to do so with levy units as I can not expect them to hold under such odds.

Some people seem to forget knowing your units, and their capabilities inside and out is an indispensable ability when commanding troops.

To that effect, since the stats are slightly worse on most socii units, they are put at less critical junctures than the main roman units when possible. As an example.
A commander needs to know where to put what units, and when to put them there. As well as for how long.

Also, I feel like I must say that whatever balancing is done with formations and all that, you should keep in mind that it would be unwise to make it difficult or cost ineffective to have a historical composition for any faction's armies.

And in some cases, units should NOT be balanced against each other. When in history was one faction's troops, training, morale, and everything perfectly matched against another.

The interplay of strong and weak, motivated and pensive. That makes for some of the most fun when two forces clash.

At the risk of sounding sociopathic, I feel great joy of seeing how well the weak can attempt to overcome the strong. But from the AI you never get a sense of seeing desperation or ingenuity. Which is unfortunate, and it will be a long time until that can be properly modeled.

[Butan]

If you have extremely good defensive formations, its true that you can cover a long thin line and still make flanking viable while outnumbered against the AI.


Before, most formations had a limited frontage (phalanx/wall), but it was easy to exploit (enable formation after melee contact while thinned out) and the AI couldnt do the same thus he was rushing on in tighter packs, even easier to flank...
2 possible solutions are what KAM does (more brutal fights means less time to flank, and constant battle balancing) and a possible overhaul of unit cost which would account for formation stats bonii, making those units costier to deploy in good numbers. A thin line of levies/regulars without defensive formations is wayyyyy riskier.

[KAM 2150]

Unit cost for formations (like pikes already have) will be done anyway, but it won't fix it at all.

[Butan]

Damn those ranged: they waited until the last minutes of that walled settlement defense to really show up and peperred my last units to submission.




See the difference between my kills and their losses? Without my defensive towers I would have lost by a much larger margin
Those barbarian early-game battles with low armoured units are beyond brutal with that experimental mod, but still balanced and fun.

[KAM 2150]

Haha, glad to hear that

[KAM 2150]

Hello my favourite guinea pigs

Here is the new pack, I haven't tested it myself so I can not tell how it works, I left old pack in the first post just in case someone will want to go back to it. Of course save game compatible.

Changelog - 30.01.2015:
-more standarized damage per weapon, melee attack and armour are base combat effectiveness stats. Low weapon damage increased, top weapon damage decreased, low tier units should be able to deal more damage, while elite will have to take a bit more time to beat weaker units
-hit chance increased a bit
-fixed melee defence of shock cavalry
-increased unit disband threshold on campaign map, units under 45% will auto disband after battle, more challenge for the player as he will lose more units, cavalry will be even more valueable


Download link:
http://www.speedyshare.com/T3MNG/aStats.pack

Now about that part with unit disbanding after too big casualties. This is my newest idea on how to make late game a bit more challenging. First of all, I noticed that I mostly never need to recruit new units, since my units simply did not die enough. Plus my cavalry was mostly fighting up to high casualties. This one should change it and even after victorious battles, some units will simply be disbanded, hopefully this will help a bit with current problem of too high replenishment/exp/training/traits and encourage players to have a bit more variety in their armies, since AoR units will be the first pick.

Now will it make AI weaker? Hope not, but from what I saw, if player was victorious, there wasn't much left of AI army anyway and its remaining units would get butchered next turn. Also AI never disbands his units so if AI will take some loses while fighting eachother, there might be more place for better units.

My biggest concern about it is how early battles will work, might get a bit difficulty.

[rjacko10]

I've just came out the most frustrating hour long walled battle (attacking / using the original experimental pack). Hoplites just don't do damage when on the walls - even against archers. So depressing. I sat and watched the towers slowly obliterate my entire army. And the oil is too powerful to go through the gate.

[Jin-]

delete

[KAM 2150]

Your results are always soo extreme xD

Also good point of towers, I think I forgot to nerf them.

[rjacko10]

Haha well from yesterday I think the arching javelins of the peltasts were killing my own troops.. so still trying out different strategies there.

But this is the first time I've experienced oil since the dei update.. damn, nothing can get through. General on horseback wiped out instantly.

Nice to know the towers will be nerfed. But the grind on the walls is so incredibly slow. My hoplites should easily chew through archers and garrison units. The hour ran out in the end and I lost (they had one wavering unit left, surrounded by my own troops - you have no idea how frustrating that was. And then for my Ally to step in on the next turn and take the settlement from under my nose = RAGE QUIT )

[KAM 2150]

That is really awkward concerning that my longest battle so far was 45 minutes on DeI, of course siege. Were your hoplites in or out of phalanx? It sounds almost impossible to happen.

[rjacko10]

Mostly in phalanx. I tried both though.

I then got another general swordsman unit up onto the walls. He kicked ass until the reached some garrison spears, then were as hopeless as the hoplites.

To be fair this is the same experience that I had with normal dei

[KAM 2150]

Sounds like you got tired, but I did not have that kind of result even on regular DeI without this submod.

[MagicCuboid]

rjacko were you actively reissuing orders for your hoplites to attack? Sometimes they get a little bit "defensive" and stop counterattacking when in formation. This is especially prevalent on walls, where units seem to get constantly confused about where they are and what direction they should be facing.

[rjacko10]

I've just run a quick test on a field with new patch, spears destroyed my archers in melee.. it's definitely to do with those walls!

[rjacko10]

It wasn't the tiredness, because I swapped around with fresh troops.

And I was starting to reissue orders once I realised the archers etc just weren't dying like they should have been. But I understand your confusion point. At one stage it was impossible to get my exhausted units off the walls, they just stood there in a massive bunch doing nothing.