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Thread: [New experimental stuff]More challenging, BAI friendly battles - 13.07.2015 update

  1. #41
    GourmetGorilla's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    I'll admit, I was skeptical when I tried this out since I was such a fan of the more drawn-out battles. But after trying it out, and actually losing a battle to the AI, I'm sold. Thank you KAM!

  2. #42

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Was this mod updated since the original post the morning of the 29th?

    I am not seeing anything remotely like the more difficult battles that several people in the thread have said.

    I am interested in having the battle experience be tougher, but with this mod in, I simply used the same tactics as before in using a strong line of heavy infantry, and focusing on taking out one side, slowly rolling the flank up to defeat the AI.

    It took less time because of not all units having encourage, but my casualties sustained and inflicted were not noticeably different than without this mod.

  3. #43
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    A lot depends on AI units. If your army is already pretty buffed or your units strong enough to hold there for long, then it will be pretty the same. You should feel more difference while fighting more elite enemy armies.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    Was this mod updated since the original post the morning of the 29th?

    I am not seeing anything remotely like the more difficult battles that several people in the thread have said.

    I am interested in having the battle experience be tougher, but with this mod in, I simply used the same tactics as before in using a strong line of heavy infantry, and focusing on taking out one side, slowly rolling the flank up to defeat the AI.

    It took less time because of not all units having encourage, but my casualties sustained and inflicted were not noticeably different than without this mod.
    Try out the Dynamic Battles submod.

  5. #45

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    units are simply more fragile. i like it.
    I also play on VH/H, so winning while outnumbered is tough.

    i played a siege yesterday (petrava? near jerusalem). My losses to archers were so large, the result was equal to what autoresolve predicted, i.e. 20% losses.

    So the pack is pretty neat.

  6. #46

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    A lot depends on AI units. If your army is already pretty buffed or your units strong enough to hold there for long, then it will be pretty the same. You should feel more difference while fighting more elite enemy armies.
    I expected that in the case where I had a Marian army that had been around since Camillian era units, all very experienced and upgraded against some mixed Egyptian troops.

    Then I went into custom battles and tried out un upgraded, unexperienced units of my same army against several different enemy types of comparable troops (marian legionnaires against thorax legionnaires/swords/spears) in as balanced a configuration as I could get.

    As well as Iberian troops of comparable composition, and some suebia armies of what I figured was the best comparison of era and unit similarity.

    In all four cases I lost 500 or less troops, compared to 3500-4000 AI losses.

    This is only about 100 more than usual, and I think a lot of it was on approach deaths from slingers. Though in one case I was looking at the other side of the battle and some cavalry got ahold of some of my slingers, resulting in unnecessary deaths on my part.


    Is it maybe because I'm specifically fighting what is tantamount to Legionnaires vs imitation legionnaires in these battles that I don't see much of a difference?

    It seems rare to actually fight a good, AI built army. They like to use a lot of the cheaper units. And even sticking to historical roman army composition, most cases they are of inferior quality to my legions.
    In the cases they do bring elite units, it's mostly one or two, which is insignificant given the even quality of all of my troops compared to their few elites + a bunch of levies.

    I could be at fault too however, I stubbornly refuse to play as anyone but Rome for many campaigns and 700+ hours of game play, so it's possible I may have fallen victim to just becoming too experienced and good at one particular thing.

    If I were to use an army composition I am unfamiliar with against a superior quality enemy AI force and this submod, it would perhaps actually be difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aethyr View Post
    Try out the Dynamic Battles submod.
    I have tried the sub mod, it was not to my taste unfortunately.

    I actually like the slow, deliberate battles. They seem far more historical to me, and I enjoy the way they play out.

    I just wish they could be both historical AND challenging. That seems to be too much to ask for though...
    Last edited by Ivan_Moscavich; January 30, 2015 at 02:01 AM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich View Post
    I actually like the slow, deliberate battles. They seem far more historical to me, and I enjoy the way they play out.

    I just wish they could be both historical AND challenging. That seems to be too much to ask for though...
    I like slower and tactical battles too. But given the BAI Rome 2 present us, to wish battles both historical and challenging is indeed too much to ask. After some time, I realised that what bother me the most are battles without any challenge. So, BDR cames to happen. First as a personal mod, now as something more people can get. If not a good mod by itself, BDR at least put the 'no challenge battles' problem at the screen, and now we are looking for solutions. It's enough to make me satisfied.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; January 30, 2015 at 02:24 AM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    I like the idea of shield defense overall going down but does this affect the likes of Hoplon shields? Those were very tough and very sturdy shields while shields covering a larger surface area like the Scutum would mostly defend against missile fire instead of holding a shield wall.

  9. #49
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    That is why hoplites get boost from phalanx formation.
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  10. #50

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    That is why hoplites get boost from phalanx formation.
    Oh yeah I forgot that and I haven't tried this mod yet and I don't have internet at my home until next Thursday (been down since last Thursday). Though wondering one thing KAM, would it ever be possible to have missile-using troops to use enemy thrown missles such as javelins or rocks to "add" to their own ammunition stock. So Javelins can be thrown back by Skirmishers who received it from the enemy?

  11. #51
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    I am a fan of slower realistic battles, but i have to admit that KAM is right. I think this is a step in the right direction, even tough i am wondering how the numerous bonii to exp we can get everywhere as well as the equipment upgrades can affect this balance. In fact i am starting to think that they should be removed or at least toned down significantly as they screw any attempt to balance things out.

  12. #52
    Krixux's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by rjacko10 View Post
    Even positioned right behind the enemy unit my peltasts have been known to route my own unit which should have shield protection.

    I typically lose about 400 men to friendly fire if I target engaged units. These are unacceptable casualties so I simply stopped using skirmishers on engaged units.

    I would like a little less spread in accuracy so shots don't miss their mark at point blank range. Orr manual fire for all skirmishers so I can target the ground the other side of the engaged units.
    ahem , I'm not (!) using "peltasts" as stated , in I use only(!!!) slingers
    at close range their fire is strait thus direct into enemies back and not over them so they are not hurting my front line

    while velites/peltasts missiles have a demi circle trajectory thus can go over the enemy and hurt my front lines
    so : I do NOT use "velites" and such
    only slingers and or archers

    @KAM2150
    just because I became a Master ( ) at using slingers along with other players(obviously ), this doesn't mean you have to nerf them

    Slingers have no defense and I sacrifice elites to keep them safe
    The mechanics are good as their are (polishing wouldn't hurt of course )


    mind you, that in some battles AI succeeded in killing most my slingers..
    this being seldom though due to my total awesomeness

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  13. #53
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Yeah, I've noticed that too, if I just leave my ranged unit behind, AI ranged units will target them right on and kill most of them if I don't have enough cav to route them quickly.
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  14. #54

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    I've had two battles recently (forgot to screen the battle report).
    In the first, I lost terribly against archer heavy AI (I only had javelinmen), who targeted all my ranged then the rest which broke super fast: missile fire + brutal melee = doomed.
    In the second (against the same army with a new one) I won a pyrrhic victory by making it so the AI archers targeted my frontline melees, THEN moved out my javelinmen from behind a hill and rushed to firing distance of the AI archers and totally destroyed them with few losses. The following melee battle was pretty harsh (I had very few javelin ammo left) but I managed to win: ranged is very important now.

  15. #55
    McCarronXLD's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    I increase the difficulty for myself while still holding onto the very long, historic battles by adjusting the AI's campaign difficulty so that I am always outnumbered in battles. Then that flank you all speak of becomes a much rarer thing.
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  16. #56

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by McCarronXLD View Post
    I increase the difficulty for myself while still holding onto the very long, historic battles by adjusting the AI's campaign difficulty so that I am always outnumbered in battles. Then that flank you all speak of becomes a much rarer thing.
    Even if out numbered, all you have to do in that situation is stretch thin a line of troops that can hold well, and flank with the remaining forces. The only reason flanking should be rare is if you are A: in a city environment or other terrain where the action is either outright impossible, or not viable. or B: You're not handling your forces correctlty.


    I've done some more custom battle testing with the mod, playing around with army configurations and my part and the AI (up to and including giving the AI a completely elite army to my more standardized ones).

    the highest casualties I've seen on my side have been 571.

    A few things I noticed though, cavalry does take quite a few more casualties when pulling back after a charge. So I've begun to be more choosey about where I charge them in, and try to move infantry in to prevent the enemy from making pursing kills on my cavalry as they pull out.

    Initial line casualties are about 10-15, but then on my side become minimal. In my last battle with a suebi army consisting of nothing but their most elite and expensive sword units, my marian legionnaires and volunteer legionnaires (4 and 4 + 2 vet legionnaires) took about 10 casualties within the first 30 seconds of combat, and then about another 20 over five minutes of combat.
    Some of the barbarian units started wavering at 150 out of 200 units, I assume because of the fact they were surrounded and losing combat. They didn't break for a further 20 casualties though.

    That is a change though from enemies not routing until 70 to 50 men remain though, which is nice to see.


    Ranged units wise, I had 2 legionnairy javelinmen, 2 merc balerc slingers, and one auxillery archer unit.
    The enemy had 2 Germanic youths, 2 longbow hunters, and 2 of their javelin units.

    I did not see the ai make use of the javelin units, I think they might have waited for the lines to engage, and then got tangled up in melee.

    The slingers and archers fired at my legionnaires, who I put in testudo. Over ten minutes of skirmishing combat (I waited 10 minutes before engaging battle lines, letting all ranged units run out of ammo), one legionnaire group took 1 casualty, and another took 2 casualties. The remaining legionnaires took zero range casualties while in testudo formation.

    My baleric slingers routed both of their slingers, and I damaged their archers with my javelin men until running out of javelins, however it was insufficient casualties to break the archers.

    They did seem to start focusing on one group of baleric slingers with their own slingers, and that slinger unit was reduced to 103 of 175 men. Casualties on my other ranged units were negligible.

    My general, and both legionary cavalry sustained 30 casualties each and inflicted roughly 250 each.


    In conclusion, while I am seeing increased casualty figures, the number is not significant, and there isn't an increase in challenge. However, this isn't a bad thing.
    While I don't see it as a challenge, I do admit that it is nice to see the enemy being capable of doing more than 200-300 damage to me when fighting in line combat.

    Previously I'd win with 200 or less casualties. It might seem odd that I consider a 300 increase in casualties "insignificant" and not a raise in difficulty, but that is because I still have no feeling that I am in danger of losing the battle. Even if I take a small increase in casualties, victory was never in question.


    Edit: I remember why I didn't see the ai use their javelin troops, they didn't have any. I gave them 4 slingers and 2 archers to my 2 slingers and 1 archer.
    I had routed one slinger group with my cavalry at the start of the battle, but the others were protected by heavy melee infantry, making my cavalry wait until lines were engaged to be used again.
    Last edited by Ivan_Moscavich; January 30, 2015 at 02:01 PM.

  17. #57
    McCarronXLD's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Sure you could do that but that is extremely risky. The thinner you make your lines the more likely the AI is able to chew through them (and they are quite able to) and once you have a hole in your lines and no reserves it is all over.
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  18. #58

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by McCarronXLD View Post
    Sure you could do that but that is extremely risky. The thinner you make your lines the more likely the AI is able to chew through them (and they are quite able to) and once you have a hole in your lines and no reserves it is all over.
    I don't have any experience using barbarian units, but with both Roman and Greek troops, even a thin line three deep has not failed to keep the enemy in place long enough for me to successfully flank.

    Again, their are extremely few reasons you should not be able to flank the enemy successfully. As long as you handle your troops well in battle, most maneuvers shouldn't be very difficult.

  19. #59

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by McCarronXLD View Post
    Sure you could do that but that is extremely risky. The thinner you make your lines the more likely the AI is able to chew through them (and they are quite able to) and once you have a hole in your lines and no reserves it is all over.
    There's no punching a hole through individual units. Stretching out into a thin line actually allows your units to holdout longer (but not kill as well as one with more depth).

    Also I'll do further testing with this when KAM updates it tonight/tomorrow.

  20. #60
    Drowsy's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Ummm. Sure i guess it works. But a thin 3 man deep line just to use your remaining force to flank instead of using them as a reserve to refresh the 3 man deep front line is gamey and frankly science fiction, as the men holding the line would never accept this, not when they have other options.

    U'll take plenty of casualties using the maniples and checkered formations while 'attempting' to flank with aux cav/skirmishers.
    Last edited by Drowsy; January 30, 2015 at 03:31 PM.

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