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Thread: [New experimental stuff]More challenging, BAI friendly battles - 13.07.2015 update

  1. #1
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default [New experimental stuff]More challenging, BAI friendly battles - 13.07.2015 update

    Discontinued until new ideas arise!





    Hello,

    As we know, in most games and mods more realistic means more difficult, but not in world of RTW2 battles. As much as we wanted to have longer, slow paced battles, AI is simply not able to work with that.

    In other words, with slower battles the game is simply much easier, as player has more time for flanking and rear charging. AI is unable to counter those tactics and once gives his units first attack orders, those units are stuck with they until they will rout their target. Once AI units are a bit more free, then they start to flank, circle, target rear charging cav units etc. One of my goals with introducing real flanking mechanics was to make combat more realistic, yet even though I always looked at AI performance in the first place, the result was not good gameplay wise.

    So these are the facts:
    - BAI is unmodable
    - slower battles make things easier
    - AI will use his units more properly after first order is finished (targeted unit routs)
    - AI does more stuff when frontal combat and overal stats are a bit lower, on new balance I saw AI pulling his units back to counter rear charges, flank and cycle charg with his cav more often etc

    So does that mean that this experimental balance is simply makes combat faster like in faster battles submods? Yes and no.

    Yes, killrates in frontal combat are faster and ranged units deal more damage too (so AI missile units are a threat, but not OP) and units will not fight to the last man (increased morale penalties for higher losses). Overal combat time is similar, battles still take around 15 minutes. Although basic balance is good for early and custom battles, it pretty much goes to the trash can once units start to get exp and upgrades. In my 340 turn Roman campaign, after early battles, first difficult battle for me was around 300 turn when I used this experimental pack. The battle was won, but my AoR units simply died and routed to fast until I was able to deliver 20 rear charges with aux cataphracts One of the most basic strategies used by players is long line without much reserves in the back, since all units were soo tanky that they could hold 3-4 AI units in front of them. On this experimental pack this is simply impossible as those 3-4 AI units, if they have similar quality, will always break through single unit in the centre and they they will start to encircle rest of the army.

    I could go on an on, but lets cut this short to the point, what experimental battles change??

    List:
    - units HP cut to around 25-35
    - shield defence lowered a lot, but armour bonus is the same
    - cavalry takes a bit more losses during pullback phase
    - missile units are more deadly frontally (altough their damage was lowered)
    - frontal combat is much shorter
    - morale penalties increased for larger casualties
    - average full stack battle time around 15 minutes
    - flanking is still dealing more kills then frontal combat
    - unit speed is the same, although light cav was slowed down a bit (still muuch faster then heavies)
    - even late game battles are more difficult
    -better BAI spotting = better tactics used by AI


    It is not going to be merged into main mod, at least not soon, but I would like to hear a feedback from you guys. Maybe we can get something even better.

    Changelog 14.07.2015:
    -fixed Dii unit cost
    -hopefully fixed tower damage
    -proper number of men in native hoplites unit
    -numidian legionaries cap taken out
    -elephants a bit more agile
    -some ammo fixed here and there

    Changelog 05.07.2015:
    -new experimental version, please test and give me the heads up, basically:
    *increased missile effectiveness and decreased missiel ammo by 25%, should help AI and with overal missile usefulness
    *Aspis Companion changed into elite shirmisher cav
    *more dynamic morale system, might decrease battle time, but also makes them harder as units can rout faster, on the other hand prevents those nasty 1 squads of hoplites still fighting entire army while surrounded. Hammer and anvil a bit harder due to that. To make up a bit for it, infantry gets less morale penalties for fighting cav
    *Increased chance to knockdown a soldier if damage was dealt in melee
    *Decreased time needed to get up for knocked down units

    Changelog 11.07.2015:
    -fixed charge values for new infantry and cav units
    -fixed attack values of new cavalry units
    -slightly decreased morale penalties for new experimental pack

    Changelog - 10.07.2015:
    -new units should be more in line with rest


    Download:
    New experimental version:
    http://www.mediafire.com/download/ta...Stats105m.pack

    Basic version:
    http://www.mediafire.com/download/if...aStats105.pack

    Old version:
    http://www.mediafire.com/download/4h...%40aStats.pack

    Previous version:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Changelog - 04.07.2015:
    -fixed for current patch, new units will be more balanced tomorrow (higher attack for cav and custom missile entries from this pack)

    Changelog - 18.06.2015:
    -fixed bug with wardogs for Babylonian Spearmen
    -improved pike phalanx

    Changelog - 28.04.2015:
    -light infantry a bit faster
    -lowered deacceleration values for infantry, charge might look a bit better as they won't have that "hit the wall" effect soo much
    -added flaming arrows
    -nerfed towers
    -lowered disband ratio by 5%
    -slightly lowered melee casualties

    Changelog - 18.02.2015:
    -completly rewored all missile weapons
    -shield no longer give armour bonus, only melee def and missile protection bonus - idea from ALEXANDER LANGE
    -decreased charge values of all units (due to less armour from shields)
    -increased attack of cavalry units, but made damage difference bigger
    -minor tweaks to units
    -shield wall now gives +1 to AP, since units in shieldwall performed worse then their stats suggest
    -slightly decreased penalties from exhausted and very tired state (since AI never gives a rest for his units), fatigue is still very important and gives major malues, but AI will present a bit bigger threat throught course of battle
    -lowered kill amount difference between shooting frontally and in the back (flanking still gives more kills, but not as many as before, while frontal fire is a bit better)
    -a bit bigger casualties for cav during pullback from combat
    -probably some other stuff I forgot

    Changelog - 08.02.2015:
    -added better spotting thanks to MagicCuboid, Krixux and Butan
    -reduced damage from boiling oil
    -reduced ammo of slingers and archers
    -tweaked stats of pike phalanx
    -slight change in unit damage
    -fixed stats of Botroas
    -reduced defence of falx units
    -increase to infantry charge speed
    -minor tweaks here and there
    -probably some other stuff I already forgot

    Download:
    http://www.speedyshare.com/WTecP/aStats.pack



    Previous packs:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Changelog - 30.01.2015:
    -more standarized damage per weapon, melee attack and armour are base combat effectiveness stats. Low weapon damage increased, top weapon damage decreased, low tier units should be able to deal more damage, while elite will have to take a bit more time to beat weaker units
    -hit chance increased a bit
    -fixed melee defence of shock cavalry
    -increased unit disband threshold on campaign map, units under 45% will auto disband after battle, more challenge for the player as he will lose more units, cavalry will be even more valueable

    Download link:
    http://www.speedyshare.com/xWJq8/aStats.pack

    http://www.speedyshare.com/pfgge/aStats.pack


    Simply put pack into data folder, it will load before DeI, make sure to tick it in mod manager.


    Special thanks to:
    MagicCuboid
    Krixux
    Butan


    For coming up, tweaking and testing new spotting mechanics!
    Last edited by KAM 2150; October 26, 2015 at 12:33 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Thanks, will try it with faster unit speeds.

  3. #3
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    You can't, they use the same tables. Faster movement values will be overwritten as this pack is loaded first. If you will put it before this pack, then faster movement tables will overwrite new HP system.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; January 29, 2015 at 08:18 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    I will try it but what I really don't like at the first look is that shield defense is lowered. Doesn't make it ranged units in frontal attacks much too powerful? I would prefer a lower melee defense perhaps.

  5. #5
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    But it is only lower melee defence.... ; P Like I wrote, shield armour is the same.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Ok, misunderstood, thought about armor armor instead of shield armor.

  7. #7
    Decanus
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Who ever uses this could they please reply back on how they like it. Thinking about trying this, but in the middle 360 turn campaign.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    You can use it on current campaign too or try some custom battles.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by adambomb1 View Post
    Who ever uses this could they please reply back on how they like it. Thinking about trying this, but in the middle 360 turn campaign.
    Its good.

  10. #10

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Did a quick test in custom battle. 6 Legionarii, 2 Triarii, 3 Balearic Slingers, 1 Equites Consulares, 1 Equites.
    I attempted to make both battles play out as similarly as possible--same formations, attacked the same unit first, moved my units the same way etc...
    The results were similar yet noticeably quicker with this pack (no other mods running ofc).

    Screenshots:
    1) Armies + battlefield:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    2) Results WITHOUT experimental pack
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    3)Results WITH experimental pack
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I'll do further testing later using the Grand Campaign.

  11. #11

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    The end result can be similar in some circumstances, even though this is also an attempt to increase casualties on the player/human side of battles (even when the battle is balanced like in yours).

    Another point is to keep battle balance, balanced, while decreasing HP and increasing missile/melee impact; as you can read in the OP. What could be interesting to hear is reports of how the test battles went on, not necessarily how they ended (even though the average battle duration is also a good element to analyze).

  12. #12
    Krixux's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Butan View Post
    Its good.
    NO it is NOT

    Because I start loosing battles now !

    @KAM2150:

    ...so you've sided with the enemy AI...
    , ,
    Had this 2 epic major defeats ...

    And the AI is cleaning the floor with me
    Seriously ? ...the r2tw AI ?

    It was good as it was, with us complaining it sux, but with the " I rule the battle field" attitude: We need a more aggressive BAI
    ok...

    ...now here it is, in it's incipient faze, hidden , lingering above my/our established "glory"...the threat of loosing , and the moment when auto-resolve will deliver less causalities defeats
    ...so it took just a sub mod to make me realize I'm not that ...but:

    Conclusion:
    One of the best ideas concerning BAI !
    KAM2150 = the end of my imaginary glory ...

    ps (unrelated)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    the power of "smilie" use
    so, ...

    I show my GF this smilie:



    and she was like:


    ..."ok, let me take a shower first"

    and I was like



    then:


    with me after
    D I V I D E - ET - I M P E R A

    & A PROPER EMPIRE: TERRA INCOGNITA .... A P E - T I
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________
    "Perhaps, as some wit remarked, the best proof that there is Intelligent Life in Outer Space is the fact it hasn't come here. Well, it can't hide forever - one day we will overhear it."

  13. #13
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Does it work with siege and artillery overhaul and naval overhaul submods? I believe they change some stats of missile units as well. Can I use the three of them together?

  14. #14
    FlashHeart07's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    If they change the same tables you will always have one submod overwriting the other and not get the full experience of this submod.
    I for one have tested it and find it to be good.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    You can't, they use the same tables. Faster movement values will be overwritten as this pack is loaded first. If you will put it before this pack, then faster movement tables will overwrite new HP system.
    Oh well... Well i used it then without the new HP system

    One thing i noticed that archers shoot "slow" air barrage again like in vanilla instead of the "straight" shooting method DeI + all other TW games use.
    I might be mistaken.

    @Krixus

    lol lucky, jealous.
    Last edited by Jin-; January 29, 2015 at 10:44 AM.

  16. #16
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Nothing was changed in how archers shoot Only their damage lowered.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Save game compatible like faster battles?
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  18. #18
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Yes.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    Sounds good, so what do you consider superior Kam? This or your own faster battles submod? What do they do differently and why isn't this a different version in that thread, since it seems their goal is similiar? I'm confused.

  20. #20
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Experimental] More challenging, BAI friendly battles

    This is more superior to faster battles, because it is balanced in other ways. To be honest I have no time and will to get much into detail, but simply this one is more complex.
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