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  1. #1
    Velico's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default German Roster

    I played a bit of the Suebi campaign on hard and want to touch on a few things in regards to the germanic sword units. Firstly I noticed that you can recruit sword units very early, and this shouldn't be the case. Swords were incredibly rare during this time period in Germania. They used bog-iron which is vastly inferior to that which the Celts and Romans used. The focus for Germanics early should be spear units. I'll list sources below as to why, and continue here with a possible solution. (1) You could make sword units come in a later building, implying that as time went on more units were equipped with advanced gear like mail, metal helmets, swords, and axes. (2) Another solution may be to lay the focus on spear units early with building selection. Unless I'm mistaken, I only got advanced spear units from a shrine to Odin. Perhaps the early barracks could have professional spearmen instead of the swordsmen. (3) Increase the cost and upkeep of sword units, to identify them as the higher strata of society. One of those, I think, would bring that campaign in line better.

    It is common misconception that the Germanics were axe-or-sword wielding at this time. The Frameae, "shot spear" was the most common weapon, with a narrow and small iron head. "... iron is not plentiful among them, as may be gathered from the style of their weapons. Few have swords or the longer kind of lance: they carry short spears, in their language "frameae," with a narrow and small iron head, so sharp and so handy in use that they fight with the same weapon, as circumstances demand, both at close quarters and at distance."
    -- Tacitus, "Germania" pp. 273.

    At the Battle of Vercellae we are told, "Their [Cimbri and Teutones] cavalry wore lofty plumes on helmets grotesquely shaped like animal heads. Their breastplates were of iron and they carried flashing white shields, two javelins each and heavy swords for hand-to-hand fighting."
    -- John Warry, "The Military Achievements of Gaius Marius," in Warfare in the Classical World, (London: Oklahoma University Press, 1995) pp. 132.

    Plutarch reaffirms the above.
    -- Plutarch, John Langhorne, William Langhorne, ed., Plutarch's Lives, (Baltimore: William and Joseph Neal, 1834), Google eBook pp. 299.

    "
    So valuable were they [swords] to their owners that they probably consigned to burials and votive deposits much less commonly than other weapons."
    -- Malcom Todd, The Early Germans, (Oxford: Blackwell Publishing, 2004), Google eBooks, pp. 36.

    The Germanic armies of our time frame were largely equipped with javelins, spears, and shields. Swords were rare amongst all of the tribes. Some historians (myself included) think it's probable that the Germanic tribes acquired many of the items that were made of iron from the Gauls, and later Romans, with their battles involving the two. "In the well excavated deposit at Esjbol North in Jutland, an unusually homogenous find, there were 60 swords, 60 belts, 62 knives, as against 200 javelins, 190 spears and 160 shields. This find dates from the second to fourth century, illustrating even then that swords and axes were rarely present in Germania."
    -- Malcom Todd (Ibid., pp. 42)

    Tacitus tells us, "They wear no outer clothing, or at most a light cloak. Few have breast-plates: scarcely one or two at most have metal or hide helmets."
    -- Tacitus, "Germania," pp. 273.

    The average soldier wore a simple tunic with pants. Their advanced equipment like swords, helmets, and armor, came primarily from looting, although the acquisition of these items was still a rarity. Much of this looted equipment went to the grizzled veterans and higher trained troops.

    I have a B.S. in History, and this was part of my thesis. If you need more sources, I can probably procure some secondary, but these should suffice for my point.

    EDIT: Apologies if this was double posted. I see a second thread in the sub-forum, not sure if it's my browser.
    Last edited by Velico; January 26, 2015 at 07:26 PM.
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  2. #2
    Chris P. Bacon's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: German Roster

    Even with my wondrous abilities I cannot pierce the physic veil surrounding Dresden's mind. I for one hypothesize that you see a lot of sword because of the animations in Rome II. I love me some historical accuracy but I'd much rather see one of my guys run through a foe with a sword instead of a club.

  3. #3

    Default Re: German Roster

    Specially piercing clubs... come on, CA!

  4. #4

    Default Re: German Roster

    Yeah, I'm sure there are some swordsmen units that should be moved higher in the recruitment chain (or to the reform), and maybe move some spear/club units down. There are plenty of club and framea-wielding units in DeI though. All the barbarian recruitment was streamlined in patch 15, and maybe some units are out of place since then. How useful is that spear unit you get from the temple of Wodanaz? It might be worth moving that to a lower level of the temple or just the regular military chain.

  5. #5
    Velico's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: German Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Augustusng View Post
    How useful is that spear unit you get from the temple of Wodanaz? It might be worth moving that to a lower level of the temple or just the regular military chain.
    They are well worth their money. You get elite spearmen, and then bodyguards. They're pretty expensive, but the elite's smash most of what they run into. There needs to be a middle, professional spear unit early that can (and should) make up the meat of your main line. You're forced to make your main line primarily swordsmen with a couple elite spearmen (since their high upkeep) and it just doesn't feel right.

    I remember reading in Tacitus that there were 100 men selected from each canton, known as, "The Hundred". What was once a number became a distinction. They were put in front of the rest of the line, and they were the first into the fray every battle. I like implementing that style of highly mobile, lightning-strike assault groups.
    Last edited by Velico; January 27, 2015 at 12:15 AM.
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velico View Post
    They are well worth their money. You get elite spearmen, and then bodyguards. They're pretty expensive, but the elite's smash most of what they run into. There needs to be a middle, professional spear unit early that can (and should) make up the meat of your main line. You're forced to make your main line primarily swordsmen with a couple elite spearmen (since their high upkeep) and it just doesn't feel right.

    I remember reading in Tacitus that there were 100 men selected from each canton, known as, "The Hundred". What was once a number became a distinction. They were put in front of the rest of the line, and they were the first into the fray every battle. I like implementing that style of highly mobile, lightning-strike assault groups.
    I haven't played the Suebi that much, but aren't the Bloodsworn (I think that's the name) a solid mid-tier spear unit?
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  7. #7
    Velico's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: German Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by DeVrie View Post
    I haven't played the Suebi that much, but aren't the Bloodsworn (I think that's the name) a solid mid-tier spear unit?
    I think they have swords now. They used to have clubs in the .96 version. Haven't used them in a while though so I'm not positive. At any rate, the AoR swordsmen are too cheap in upkeep I think. Other factions are recruiting 6+ and they're nigh unstoppable. Really should be later and/or higher upkeep. For me, it's something like 125 upkeep for a unit that has 27 attack, 75 defense, 21 weap damage, 50 armor, 50 morale, and 225 men in a unit. That is just too good to pass up, both for the player and the AI. As a result these dudes are everywhere, laying waste to almost anything they go up against (save for other germanic swordsmen). It's just not fun (or accurate) to go up against constantly when you've done collegiate level study on the subject.

    Another possible solution may rest in the AoR unit versus the Suebi specific. The Suebi specific (sword masters I think) are slightly better, but only have 150 men. There is no use in even having this unit in the game if it's trumped by an AoR unit. Sure, you get slightly better stats, but it doesn't amount to having 75 extra guys in your unit. Seems weird that an AoR unit would have more men than a faction specific.

    Developer response would be appreciated on this, I'd really like to know where you're coming from with the representation. If you have sources for me to look into, I'd be happy to check them if there is anything contrary to what I've stated.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: German Roster

    You shoud at least move Spear Brothers and Bloodsworn to pre-reform unit roster, and move Wodanaz Spears and Sword Masters to post-reform. As things are now, you get acess to elite spear and sword units before reform, and get acess to simple upgrades for levy spears and clubs post-reform, by the time you will never recruit them. Also, Longbow Hunters are a bad joke compared to AOR 5 and AOR 6 Germanic Hunters: just +10 morale (that's all!) after 3 researches , 1 building +1 upgrade, and 1 resource requiste.

  9. #9

    Default Re: German Roster

    I also have a question about the German AOR. Playing as Suebi I can get AOR Hernautoz and AOR Dreugaloz Bardaalalalaljoz (or whatever their name is), which are "supposed to be the best warriors of the tribe". Yet they have lower morale than my levy troops. I know AOR troops have lower morale, but why aren't these units available in non-AOR versions for the Suebi? (to clarify, the Hernautoz are availabe as non-AOR but they have 75 less men and 10 less armor. The Dreugaloz aren't available at all).

  10. #10
    Zonac's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: German Roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandre Lange View Post
    Also, Longbow Hunters are a bad joke compared to AOR 5 and AOR 6 Germanic Hunters: just +10 morale (that's all!) after 3 researches , 1 building +1 upgrade, and 1 resource requiste.
    But in melee mode longbow hunters use a spear instead of a knive like the AoR unit does, which is good enough to fend of some light cavalry though
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: German Roster

    There are inconsitencies in terms of AoR, Merc and Garrison units, but they will be progressively fixed. Also note that AoR units are capped and you can't recruit dozens of them (that is why they are cheaper, to encourage player and AI to use them, since mostly they are weaker then core units).
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  12. #12
    Velico's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: German Roster

    Is it within the realm of possibilities to push these AoR units to a later date for introduction so that early game Germania is fought with spear and javelin? Along with shifting some of the other sword units later and bringing spear units forward?
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  13. #13

    Default Re: German Roster

    The AoR units are capped (12 I think) and have significantly lower morale. The germanic sword guys which are only 150 can hold the line till Kingdom come, but it's true they are very expensive in comparison with AoR. I dunno, but AoR units being cheaper really encourages the player and AI to use them a lot which adds much variety and a sense fo place, since you can be fighting the same faction in different areas and with vastly different stack compositions. What little I have played with Suebi I have used the AoR longbowmen, I love those badasses. I also took some land in Britania just to recruit the briton ambusher AoR. It makes warriors become a strategic resource for the player which I really appreciate.
    I admit I don't know the minutae of history as well as the OP so I understand there might be historical inconsistencies I don't notice but might be jarring for an expert
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  14. #14
    Velico's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: German Roster

    I've got to say I'm pretty disappointed with the developer response on this issue. For a mod priding itself on historical accuracy, having almost no response to this glaring inaccuracy is dismaying.
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    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: German Roster

    Or maybe we sacrifice our own time for free and we deserve some time off too? : )
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    Chris P. Bacon's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: German Roster


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