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Thread: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Mar 07 Update)

  1. #61

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    Although I appreciate all the efforts to make AI more dangerous in battles I see a problem with the moral system. What we get is faster battles with butcher mechanic and extreme losses. That's so unhistorical that I have problems to enjoy the higher difficulty. Units break way to late. Of course if they broke earlier it would be seemingly a little bit the return of the vanilla system.
    The problem many modders noticed is that if you prelong the battles too much, they will simply become way to easy. The fast paced battles of vanilla is the way to go so far (IF you want a challenge), due to the fact AI copes best with them.
    I used to play with DEI around, but all battles I did were extremely easy on the highest difficulty levels due to AI failing to understand the slow pace of the game.

  2. #62

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    At present it is a little hard to get a campaign off the ground with the little income we start with and the massive casualties we receive. I think either we need to buff the hitpoints a bit or perhaps the damage mitigation or melee defense. I feel units should be able to hold out 25% to 30% more than they currently do in this build as the slaughter is too wholesale. As discussed earlier, the morale tweaks could be good, but we would need somebody experienced in those tables to assist.

  3. #63

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Quote Originally Posted by Aethyr View Post
    At present it is a little hard to get a campaign off the ground with the little income we start with and the massive casualties we receive. I think either we need to buff the hitpoints a bit or perhaps the damage mitigation or melee defense. I feel units should be able to hold out 25% to 30% more than they currently do in this build as the slaughter is too wholesale. As discussed earlier, the morale tweaks could be good, but we would need somebody experienced in those tables to assist.
    I haven't played campaign battles so far, only experienced with custom battles and it seems as it should to be honest. When your units are in a 1v1 against similar units the results should be close, and not onesided.
    I am also using the Improved spotting distances mod, and the AI acts better overall than default DEI and Vanilla.

    Let's see how this will work in the grand campaign, I feel confident enough now to give it a try.

  4. #64

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    As I said, it feels good for a battle, you can come out on top if you play your cards right, but in a campaign, especially an early one where you are juggling between building an empire, building up your provinces and armies, replacing casualties is very expensive. I am some 50 turns into my new Rome campaign and ive have some great battles so far, but i stand by my above suggestions.

    Saying that, I am still playing around with my tactics and I think the only mitigating one I can think of for the moment is running two armies tandem to ensure swifter victories.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Quote Originally Posted by PricopAlex View Post
    The problem many modders noticed is that if you prelong the battles too much, they will simply become way to easy. The fast paced battles of vanilla is the way to go so far (IF you want a challenge), due to the fact AI copes best with them.
    I used to play with DEI around, but all battles I did were extremely easy on the highest difficulty levels due to AI failing to understand the slow pace of the game.
    I'm aware of the problems of longer battles although in some cases long battles also help the AI, depending on the units involved. I remember an unpleasant battle against a superior Illyrian force with lots of hoplites who simply outlasted me. I usually deal with "battle problems" by using mostly only average units, so I don't have so many battles too easy. Perhaps difficult when playing as Rome but I don't play as Rome.

    When dealing with shorter battles you can increase the casualties or shorten the time till routing by lowering the moral/changing the breaking point or you can do both. I would prefer less casualties, so a lower moral would be necessary. I did not mod moral till now in my personal DeI-change-mod, so I don't have experience with it. One of the advantages of the BDR-mod is that the bigger tables are not to be changed, f.e. all the land_unit_tables. That would of course not be the case if you had to change all the moral stats. I'm not sure wether good results could be received just by changing the moral effects (don't know where it is, kv_rules_table?).

  6. #66

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I'm with geala on the idea of morale. Another idea which could help would be buffing the out of replenishment. It is a pretty terrible solution but it would allow the campaign to flow.

  7. #67

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I agree with the general feel of 'too fast', guys. I have made melee defense and armor a little higher in the last update (few minutes ago), so melee should last longer. Also, I fine tuned all units, everything should be more balanced and reasonable now. In special, we should see more significant differences regarding hit points (tiny light slingers will have less hp, huge heavy warriors will have more, for example). Enter custom battles and compare stats between units in a roster. Then try some battles. If you notice that something still strange, please let me know.

  8. #68

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Just here to bring some new feedback =)
    Well, on this latest update the overall combat feels more like vanilla DEI, yet a little bit faster, archers deal almost no damage in the beginning of the battle, Elite troops can take a lot more damage(time in combat) before dying/breaking while levy/light troops die as fast as in the older versions(this makes sense to me xP), the charge is really great, i mean in the older versions, even the heaviest troops would lose around 30-40 men when taking a charge and now they lose around 10 ( also makes sense to me) i tested several times with athens vs makedon and rome vs arveni. The results were very similar every time. Even though i like the carnage(of the older versions) of seeing my troops finally dying hehe, i think that the mod is close to reaching that sweet spot. The only true bad point on the latest version in my opinion is that the "heart attacks" are back, i hate seeing troops randomly dying like that, in the older versions they would always be killed in one of those awesome combat animations. I hope it helps, keep up the good work =)

  9. #69

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Yeah, heart attacks are the downside of Formation Attack back to the action. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about that, as we can't put melee_secondary_attack_probability = 0 at kv_rules without glitches when Fortation Attack is enabled. I'm sorry.

  10. #70

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    As i said to you on Steam, they carnage could be increased by say, 10%-15% but this definitely feels very very very close to the sweet spot in my opinion. As Games135 said, seeing the levies torn to shreds by Elite units feels right, and elites slugging it out with one another feels closer to a fair fight to me.

  11. #71

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Hmm, formation attack is fine despite the hearth attacks some soldiers get. Rarely you get to sit up close to a fight to see those little details. On the other hand, seeing your formation break 2 minutes after the start of the fight is way more annoying.

    Now on to the actual feedback. Yesterday the fights were a tad too fast, even for my taste. This latest update makes everything feels a bit better, and Alexandre might have hit a sweet spot.

    The battles are still immensely challenging (testing on hard difficulty as on normal I win way too often), yet they still feel balanced and fast (faster than Faster battles 2.0 or KAM's mod, which is good in my opinion).
    Swordmen kill swordmen, spearmen kill horses and other spearmen, yet they lose heavily to swordmen. With this mod the player has to use them wisely, and cannot keep them for meat-shield purposes that can hold out forever like in normal DEI. You have to keep them safe to prevent flanking attempts from enemy cavalry.

    Archers still work ok. I'm used to them not being all that useful early, but once the fighting starts, if they are positioned properly they will get more kills than your average soldier unit.

    Cavalry charges work ok, nothing to comment on them. Skirmishers are still pretty strong when attacking from behind with their javelins.

    Now, another mod I tested and might influence my experience is the second version of improved spotting mod.

  12. #72

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I'm using that vision mod too and I'm finding improved battles too, though I am curious if it is a placebo.

    I like your assessment regarding swords spears etc. Cavalry feels good too.

    Again this mod has posed new challenges and these are not limited to the battle map. I find myself looting more and taking traits like unit replenishment more often etc to keep my armies alive and in the fight. I am only fighting the fights I feel I can win and this is as it should be.

  13. #73

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Did you change anything in regards to cavalry mass? The charges seem perfect with this, if you like watching slightly arcadey charges. I just watched some cataphracts (buffed by their general, Into the breach combined with Battle Rythm makes for some OP ) mow through a clump of infantry like a hot knife through butter. The coolest thing about it, is cav charges have enough momentum to breach holes through light and medium infantry, which you can use to safely pull through.

  14. #74

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I like no formation version more. But pike phalanx are bit odd sometimes

  15. #75

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    BDR Major Update. Some fixes, many tweaks. I am pretty convinced that now I reach the limit of the mod. This should be the 'final' version (as final it can be; DeI is always bringing us something new). I don't intend to make any big change from now on, just fixes (if nedded) and compatibility updates.

    Elin4Lyfe: I fixed some infantry mass values that seems inconsistent to me (instead of 150 / 120 / 90 / 60 / 35 for very heavy / heavy / medium / light / very light entities, I have made it 150 / 130 / 110 / 90 / 70), but those changes made light infantry less prone to cavalry charge (on the opposite way you suggest, as they have now a little higher mass). I have made no change at cavalry mass. Sometimes cavalry charge just land perfectly (especially with a downhill behind the target).
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 07, 2015 at 05:32 PM.

  16. #76

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Feb 07 Update)

    Thanks for your work Alexandre, the changes between light medium heavy hps adjusted in this version?

  17. #77

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Feb 07 Update)

    Yes, Aethyr. Compare stats at custom battle setup screen.

    Base HP (Entities): 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 / 15 (very heavy / heavy / medium / light / very light)
    Class Bonus: missile infantry /missile cavalry: +0, pike infantry / shock cavalry: +1, spear infantry / melee cavalry: +2, melee infantry: +3
    Quality Bonus: rabble (mob): -1, poorly trained: +0, trained: +1, well trained: +2, elite: +3

    So, infantry units hp varies from 15 to 25. Mounted units also have a bonus based on their mount (+1 for very light horses to +7 for cataphracts), so their hp varies from 16 to 32. This may seems very low hp, but given the BDR mechanics (especially damage mitigation), it is just as it should be. Trust me: it works.

    Now that I have finished the hard work, I will have some more time to update the mod description with all information it currently lacks.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; February 08, 2015 at 07:35 PM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Feb 07 Update)

    After reading the description I'm pretty hyped for the mod. Thank you, Alexander Lange

    To those who played both this and the official faster battles submod, I read the whole thread and I just want to make sure - so BDR is a replacement for the submod, both make the battles faster, however BDR also more immersive. Have I got it right?
    Sorry, I can't test it myself, I'm waiting for the shipment with my new video card

  19. #79

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Feb 07 Update)

    Silu: KAM's experimental mod (More challenging, BAI friendly battles) and BDR seems to aim for the same: challenge. I can't tell you what way Kam took to archieve this (I am busy with BDR, don't tryed his mod yet), but I am sure it is a good mod and should not be too far from what we see at BDR (as the options we have to work with are limited). As I already said: probably anything KAM does will be better then what I could do. He has experience, and know DeI from inside. I am just a player, a DeI user with some personal tweaks. Try BDR, try KAM's experimental mod, try Faster Battles you mentioned (this one aim just for this: faster battles, not increased challenge, as far as I know). Finally, keep the one that fits better your taste. The chose you make will be the right one.

  20. #80

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Feb 07 Update)

    KAM has almost the same effect as your mod, only yours feels a bit faster. That's about all I could notice.

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