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Thread: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Mar 07 Update)

  1. #1

    Default [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI (Mar 07 Update)

    WARNING: Don't use mods that changes kv_rules with BDR! Even some animation mods (like 'More Bloody Animations') change kv_rules to make melee_secondary_attack_probability =0 (this way no death occur without kill animation), and this affect BDR a lot!

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    Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    We don't want weak enemies, we want worthy blood and glory. We want battles to be remembered.

    I present you Battle Dynamics Reworked (BDR) for DEI. It is a collection of personal tweaks aiming to get as close as possible to a challenging and rewarding battle experience.

    Spoiler for DOWNLOAD
    >>> Subscribe to Steam Version <<< or >>> Download Non-Steam Version <<<

    Hmm... maybe you wanna try something more... vicious? What about pilum impact that throws men back, breaking lines and slowing down the enemy advance? What about true chaos on the battlefield, where pretty formations find no place? What if every single duel ends with a bloody killing move? You want it? Yes? So...BDR Add: Total Carnage* !!!

    * Total Carnage is an optional addition to BDR (you still need BDR) , featuring some extremely brutal effects. If you use Mitch's Mod Manager, load it above BDR. It's not serious, just for fun. Maybe worth a try.

    Below you will find the mod features detailed and reasons behind the changes.

    Units Movement (walk/run/charge speeds and acceleration)


    In BDR units are faster. They walk faster and run faster. They march like warriors eager for blood, not crawling like sick peasants. And when they run, they run for good! No more slow motion charges. You have less time to think and positioning. Also, there are enough differences between light and heavy units speeds to make skirmish viable.

    Run speed represents a speed the unit can maintain with relative confort for a given amount of time. Light units can sustain higher speeds for longer. Charge speed is run speed + a fraction of unit acceleration. This fraction is smaller for a light unit compared to a heavy one, that way we can properly represent the momentum the unit weight give it at the final sprint before the clash. While a very heavy (slow) unit increases substantially its speed in the final stage of a charge, a very light unit (already fast) don't increase it at all.

    All changes regarding speed, acceleration and decceleration aim both for balance and realism, trying to make units movement more natural and fluid, confortable to watch, without lose the focus on practical matters. Also, I tryed my best to make the numbers translates into animations free from glitches (like a unit moving while it's animation already stops to move - sliding - because the decceleration value is too low for that particular unit animation). The game imposes us limits on that, thou.

    Units Survivability (melee defense and hit points)

    After some time trying to realise what's the real problem with the AI behavior at battles (BAI), I have found that the major issue is that BAI can't react well to the players' maneuvers. BAI tend to stick with a given order until it's done, so if a given unit receive an order to engage another unit, it will keep fighting this unit until it manage to rout them. With high unit survivability (low killrates), the player can use few units to make long and thin lines that will hold the enemy enough time for him to use the rest of his units to maneuver to the flanks/rear of the enemy's lines and proceed with the slaughter we are all familiar with.

    There is little we can do about BAI behavior itself, but we can do something about the holding time of the player lines: making unit survivability lower (i.e., reducing mele defense and hit points) lines hold less, so BAI can archive its goal (rout the player unit) and go to the next order. So, that's how things are at BDR: units have lower melee defense and reduced hit points. Killrates are higher and lines break faster.

    As lines break faster, the player can't use few units in streched lines to pin the enemy anymore. In fact, most of the time he will need his extra units as reserves to fill the gaps. So, no more free flank maneuvers right from the start: you need to manage your units carefully and wait for the opportunities now. The lines don't break faster to the point you can barelly handle it, however, just faster enough to alow the AI to behave better, freeing it's units to be assigned to new orders, so it can react to the player maneuvers. Or, better: even make maneuvers of its own! My jaw droped while I watch AI flanking me after rout some of my main line units! As a good side effect (not realy intended, but a welcome surprise), you can now see units routing during the course of the battle (not only at the end) and comming back to the action if you manage to cover the retreat and avoid the disband.

    Shields (melee defense and armor bonus)

    A shield is made to block. It can reduce the impact of a blow that even then will hit the man behind it, yes, but this is more about the handler action and other factors (covered at Damage Mitigation, bellow) then about the shield itself. The shield is good to avoid the hit, either from a melee or missile weapon. An actual hit for game machanics purpose is a good stroke, something that bypasses the target defenses (including shield) to land with real effect; something the shield couldn't stop (i.e.: melee defense or missile block chance fails to prevent). From that point on, it is all about attacker's weapon and target's damage mitigation (see bellow) to define damage.

    So, in BDR shields have no armor bonus. Shield melee defense was a lot reduced too, as shields are tools to defend its handlers, not defense by itself. Compared to a unit melee defense base, the protection a shield can provide should be just a bonus, not the major portion of the that unit melee defense stat. A shield is useful even at the hands of an untrained user, but alone should not protect a person who don't know how to defend itself more then a trained soldier would do without a shield.

    New Concept: Damage Mitigation

    Rome 2 has a particular way to deal with damage: instead of make a damage roll, it makes an armor roll and subtrat the result from the weapon damage. Problem is: if the target unit don't have any armor, the damage it takes is always equal to the attacker's maximun weapon damage (a constant). So, nothing but armor matters to define damage. After a hit is scored, the target is suposed to stand still, waiting for the weapon to strike always with its full potential, unless he has some armor. An unarmored unit can try to avoid the hit
    (a previous roll), but once it was hit, it's done: full damage. Thing is: wepons don't strike with full potential all the time, even unarmored targets. The efforts to mitigate the weapon impact, and even luck, should matter.

    To proper represent those until now ignored variables, BDR presents you a new concept: Damage Mitigation. It's the unit capacity to reduce the damage over itself after a scored hit. It represents partial dodge, parry or block, natural toughness and luck (it's a random value generated by a roll, after all). Armor adds to Damage Mitigation. Units, weapons and armors were tweaked to proper work with the new system. That's it: now units don't have to be sitting ducks only because they don't wear an armor!

    Now that you know what is BDR, you are welcome to enjoy it.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; March 07, 2015 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Minor Tweaks

  2. #2

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Congratulations on creating this new submod.
    As said in the previous thread, I feel that we are moving into good territory with these changes, the combat definitely feels a lot more meaningful and bloody. Thought must be employed on both the campaign map as well as in the battlefield, and one wrong move could mean catastrophic consequences for your armies and perhaps your campaign.

  3. #3
    SilverCohort's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    NEED DESCRIPTION NOW! lol this mod looks interesting and the mystery is killing me.

  4. #4

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I think DeI is good at CAI (as good as it can be, given what modders can do with the limitations the game imposes), we just need a more challenging BAI to make bad moves matters. As we can't do much regarding BAI ability to react and maneuver, we need somehow deny the player the time and opportunity to setup everything in his favor. In other words, we can just make battles faster and brutal to make the lines brake faster, demanding the player attention and reserve units to fill the gaps. The more the lines hold, the less the player loses and the more he can freely maneuver to the enemies' back and slaughter them. It's ok to stomp the enemy when you really have the superiority to do it. But when you notice that you can ALWAYS do it, the game gets boring as hell. So, let's give the player something to remember!

  5. #5

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    OP updated with some description. More to come.

  6. #6

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexandre Lange View Post
    I think DeI is good at CAI (as good as it can be, given what modders can do with the limitations the game imposes), we just need a more challenging BAI to make bad moves matters. As we can't do much regarding BAI ability to react and maneuver, we need somehow deny the player the time and opportunity to setup everything in his favor. In other words, we can just make battles faster and brutal to make the lines brake faster, demanding the player attention and reserve units to fill the gaps. The more the lines hold, the less the player loses and the more he can freely maneuver to the enemies' back and slaughter them. It's ok to stomp the enemy when you really have the superiority to do it. But when you notice that you can ALWAYS do it, the game gets boring as hell. So, let's give the player something to remember!

    Well that has certainly been acheived. My campaign is nearing 300 turns, I have conquered the way to Britannia, Spain and through Greece, mopping the floor with the enemy time and time again with very little resistance, even in scenarios where I am outnumbered 3:1. Not anymore. I think it still needs some tweaking, im finding it a little too furious in that my vastly superior troops still take pretty big casualties to inferior armies at times, but I think you are not too far from the sweet spot. The faster units certainly are a big change to what I am used to but I like it. Good work, look forward to further iterations.

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I made no change at individual unit tables (land units) apart from 3 little tweaks: accuracy 5>10 for dacian archers, accuracy 10>15 for dacian elite archers, and accuracy 10>15 for longbow hunters. That's all. The relevant changes (hp reduction, shield melee defense reduction, melee hit chance increase, speed increase, etc.) are global, affecting all units. As some global application values (namely shield melee defense and entities hp) are now much lower, units must count a lot more with its individual stats (melee attack and defense, bonus hp, traits and formations, etc.) and equipment apart from shield (armor and weapon). So, if you are experiencing little difference between a given pair of units, it is because the diferences between their individual stats are indeed little, as, again, I don't change (and I don't want to change) anything at individual unit stats.

    We are used to lose nothing. The few men we used to lose came from the units we exposed the most, usually the cheaper ones. That give us the wrong impression that our elite units are invulnerable. It is natural to get shocked when you see your elites falling in the new scenario. But if you watch carefuly, you see that they fall less and later then levies, carrying a bunch of enemies with them. Generally speaking, just try to protect your valuable units: in a real battle, good soldiers die too. When you can't protect them, remember that sometimes 300 fallen warriors worth 30,000. It doesn't matter how much life remains to a man: it matters what he does with the life he has. Make it worth.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; January 27, 2015 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Yeah man, I am having a blast, it is funny, but its kind of fun losing. One of my best generals in his Imperial Praetorian unit over extended got hit from 3 sides and was getting cut to ribbons, luckily my reserves moved in just in time and saved the day. He survived that battle, with only 24 of his retinue intact but it was a scary moment. Now, if that was normal, i would have noticed after a few minutes, with a handful of men down, waltzed on over and done the same thing but with very very few losses on my end. I am being forced to reconsider how I comprise my armies too. Uts a welcome change, and this campaign may yet have some challenge to it.

    IF YOU HAVE NOT TRIED THIS SUBMOD AND ARE LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE, I DEFINITELY RECOMMEND A LOOK.

  9. #9

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Hey Alexandre, comparing to Kam's Faster Battles submod, what does this do differently? Doesn't his submod do essentially the same?

  10. #10

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I don't know, I never downloaded his mod. You can take a look at the tables and judge it yourself. This one is just a collection of my personal tweaks for DeI, released as submod by request. Some asked for it, now they have it. Feel free to try it too!

  11. #11

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I know I am going to sound like I am harping on about the same stuff, but I cannot emphasize how much this has changed my campaign. I have many enemy stacks showing up on my frontline through Turkey into the middle east, something I would have looked at previously as a tedious level grind for my armies to burn through, steamrolling everything in my wake. Not this time. I am worried. My lines are stretched, my mustered forces are green and I am being forced to consolidate multiple stacks in hard points to mitigate the chances of either lost legions or at least, significant losses.
    Really having a blast man!

  12. #12

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Absolutely brilliant! Thank you much mate. +rep for days. Dresden elsewhere mentioned he was going to plan a hardcore submod for DeI, I sincerely hope he sees this. It takes care of my 2 biggest pet peeves; repetitive ease of battles and lack of unit exp decay (they die more now so there's the decay).

  13. #13
    Chris P. Bacon's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    So basically this mod makes battles faster in general or does it buff the AI's troops and in what way? Additionally, is it this save game compatible?
    Last edited by Chris P. Bacon; January 28, 2015 at 10:53 AM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    No changes at units stats at all except for the 3 little tweaks I mentioned here (just a matter of personal taste, you can just remove all from land_units table with no real effect). I just increased melee hit chance, reduced entities base hp (from 40-45 to 15-19), reduced shield defense to 1/4 and removed shield armor (yes, big changes, reasons as soon as I can write a proper the description), and increased unit speeds. All changes are global (affect all units, no change related to specific units), and affect both player and AI.
    Last edited by Alexandre Lange; January 28, 2015 at 03:45 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I would love to hear from someone who has tried both the official faster battle submod and this one. I'm just about to dive into the world of fast battles and want to make an informed choice.

    Thanks Alexandre Lange for a new option!!

  16. #16

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Just try both and keep the one you are more confortable with!

    More then hear you prefere mine, I would like to know your impressions and points where you suggest adjustments. I really don't know if those tweaks here could do better, as I lack modding experience and knowledge to even judge that. I just tryed a lot of different values at the tables and watched the effects in game, keeping the values that, in my opinion, produced the better results in each area I think should be different.

    Probably Kam's mods are way better then mine, as he is a real modder/tester and has a vast experience with tables, and DeI itself. Anyway, I would like to see more people testing BDR, to help me to make it better, not to be proud of a wonder, but to use it myself. As I say: those are my personal tweaks shared with you, so I am the most interested to improve it. Help me, guys!

  17. #17
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Actually I am working on something similar. So far battles are better balanced in terms of BAI performance. Dedicated thread will be made tomorrow. I will also explain how BAI works in releation with unit stats plus how I achieved more challenging battles, without making big sacrifices in terms of balance (battles still take around 15 minutes, but are way smoother).
    Official DeI Instagram Account! https://www.instagram.com/divideetimperamod/
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  18. #18

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    I think unit durability needs to be upped slightly, and unit speeds lowered a little too. Its good, but it still feels like its a little left of centre in terms of 'the sweet spot'. I tried to have a look to edit myself, but wasn't sure where to start!

  19. #19

    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Agreed, Aethyr. Even if I like the 'fast and furious' fell and I am satisfied with the average player losses per battle, in a long-term view (testing it at campaign) I felt myself a little overruned by the current pace. I will tune down a little both unit speeds and killrate. I am satisfied with the missiles effect, thou (all the same with projectiles itselves, but faster kills because of lower HP and lower armor). What you think?

    And as you are here, KAM, I will take the opportunity to ask: do you think you will finish the conversion of all units to the new heavy-heavy, (...), light-light entities system within next days? If yes, could you pass it to me before it goes out at the next DeI version, so I could work already over the new tables? If so, I will hold the BDR update until then.

    Thanks for the support and feedback, guys. Really. I never expected to see my little tweaks appreciated by anyone but me. I fell rewarded.

  20. #20
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Battle Dynamics Reworked for DEI

    Honestly, I have no idea when I will do it. After tomorrow I will propably be away from my modding PC until mid next week.
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