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Thread: Warhammer Total War Map

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Horus View Post
    You mean like Essen meaning "to eat" in German?
    Quote Originally Posted by English Wikipedia
    In German-speaking countries, the name of the city Essen often causes confusion as to its origins, because it is commonly known as the German infinitive of the verb for the act of eating, and/or the German noun for food. Although scholars still dispute the interpretation of the name,[6] there remain a few noteworthy interpretations. The oldest known form of the city's name is Astnide, which changed to Essen by way of forms such as Astnidum, Assinde, Essendia and Esnede. The name Astnide may have referred either to a region where many ash trees (Eschen) were found or to a region in the East (of the Frankish Empire).[7] The Old High German word for fireplace, Esse, is also commonly mentioned due to the industrial history of the city, but is highly unlikely since the old forms of the city name originate from times before industrialization.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanish Wikipedia
    Contrary to the popular belief, the name of Essen is not related to food (essen in german is also the infinitive of "to eat"), but it seems to have originated from the old word Asnithi, which could be related to a region to the east or a region where there were many trees of the type "Eschen"
    Sorry buddy, not the case.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; February 14, 2015 at 04:08 AM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Again, I'm not versed in the Warhammer lore, but that certainly looks a lot like Amsterdam and the Rhine river. but as you can see, I do actually have to make an effort to notice the connection. I have to do it on purpose, intentionally. So if I choose not to do that, it should not break the immersion. That is not the case with Essen. Essen immediatly brings me images of industry and I can't help it. If they actually wanted to make the player/reader think of a 19th century industrial node, then I guess Essen would make sense, but I don't really see why would they want to do that since, as you have pointed out several times, the game is principally set on the 16th century.
    And that's where the disconnect comes for me. In the same way that Essen immediately brings to you images of industry, Marienburg immediately brings me images of landlocked castles, the Teutonic Order, and the Baltic Crusades. However, I know that's not what Marienburg is in Warhammer and so I have no problem with it. So that's why it's so baffling to me that you have a problem keeping Essen (Warhammer) & Essen (Ruhr) separate in your head.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by illathid View Post
    And that's where the disconnect comes for me. In the same way that Essen immediately brings to you images of industry, Marienburg immediately brings me images of landlocked castles, the Teutonic Order, and the Baltic Crusades. However, I know that's not what Marienburg is in Warhammer and so I have no problem with it. So that's why it's so baffling to me that you have a problem keeping Essen (Warhammer) & Essen (Ruhr) separate in your head.
    Well, again I guess everyone has its own scale. I hope you agree with me that having a town named New York would not preciselly contribute to the immersion in this particular setting and that it could be kind of weird to imagine a 16th century New York with orks and dwarfs instead of skyscrappers.

    Everyone can get used to everything eventually, but since this particular trend of naming seems to just have disadvantages and does not really add a thing (that can't be achieved in better, less intrusive ways), I don't know why the insistence on keeping it. Again, of course this is very personal and everyone might have it's own opinion, and there might be someone who finds Altdorf (or Marienburg in your case) more distracting than Essen, but I think we can at least agree that there will be more people who would find names like New York or Essen out of place than people who would get distracted from immersion by Altdorf or Marienburg.


    The only reason I can think for insisting on keeping the name is some kind of fanboy lore orthodoxy which, given that I don't preciselly consider the Warhammer lore like a major piece of quality literature, I honestly find a bit whimsy and nonsensical.

    But then again, I'm just going on with it because you guys keep asking, it's really not such a big deal for me, I just don't find it a good choice from a design point of view but that's about it. I found the Estalia map much more uninspired than the rest of the Old World and apparently the main reason is that it is fan-made (and in all honesty, all the fan-made content about Estalia that I've seen so far is plain awful), so I just let the rest be. I still think that they could have designed it better and chosen more generic names in some cases, but I feel like we are giving all this a lot more attention than it really deserves.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Well, again I guess everyone has its own scale. I hope you agree with me that having a town named New York would not preciselly contribute to the immersion in this particular setting and that it could be kind of weird to imagine a 16th century New York with orks and dwarfs instead of skyscrappers.

    Everyone can get used to everything eventually, but since this particular trend of naming seems to just have disadvantages and does not really add a thing (that can't be achieved in better, less intrusive ways), I don't know why the insistence on keeping it. Again, of course this is very personal and everyone might have it's own opinion, and there might be someone who finds Altdorf (or Marienburg in your case) more distracting than Essen, but I think we can at least agree that there will be more people who would find names like New York or Essen out of place than people who would get distracted from immersion by Altdorf or Marienburg.


    The only reason I can think for insisting on keeping the name is some kind of fanboy lore orthodoxy which, given that I don't preciselly consider the Warhammer lore like a major piece of quality literature, I honestly find a bit whimsy and nonsensical.

    But then again, I'm just going on with it because you guys keep asking, it's really not such a big deal for me, I just don't find it a good choice from a design point of view but that's about it. I found the Estalia map much more uninspired than the rest of the Old World and apparently the main reason is that it is fan-made (and in all honesty, all the fan-made content about Estalia that I've seen so far is plain awful), so I just let the rest be. I still think that they could have designed it better and chosen more generic names in some cases, but I feel like we are giving all this a lot more attention than it really deserves.
    Well like, I've said before in this thread, I'd be fine with a New York somewhere as long as it was in the new world somewhere (as New York is obviously a colonial name). I'd probably make a tiny, insignificant, village because I find that funny myself, but I'd not have any problem with there being a New York. Also, you're not getting what I'm saying about Marienburg. I'm saying that objectively, the difference between Marienburgrw and Marienburgwh is greater than the difference between Essenrw and Essenwh. However, I have no problem with either the Essenwh or Marienburgwh, being canon locations. I find either to be "distracting" as you put it. So the trouble I'm having is understanding why you have an issue with this. Maybe I'm just thick headed.

    And you're right, we are probably giving this way more attention than it deserves.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by illathid View Post
    So the trouble I'm having is understanding why you have an issue with this.
    Wouldn't you find it weird if the orc kingdom of Moria was called "Pensilvania" instead of Moria? I don't know, I think a lot of people would find that nomenclature unnecesary and not really contributing at all. You could get used to it eventually, but since there is no reason to do that, I don't know why would someone want to go through the trouble of adapting to that when there is absolutelly no need to.

    Yes, I could get used to Essen, and I would still play the game no problem, but I would still find it a poor design decission. They named Bilbao "Bilbali", they named Spain/Italy "Estalia", they named the actual Italy "Tilea", they named Scandinavia/Norway "Norsca", I don't see why they couldn't at least name Essen "Eschen" or "Eschenstadt" (Ash city) or "Festessenberg" (feast/banquet hill) or something in those lines, if just to avoid the immediate relationship to distracting historical references.



    By the way, it's not the name so much as what it inspires. I'm certain that close to no one thinks of York, Yorkshire, UK, when spoken of New York. Skyscrapers, Time's Square, yellow cabs, Central Park or even the Knicks are much immediate images.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; February 14, 2015 at 10:53 PM.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Wouldn't you find it weird if the orc kingdom of Moria was called "Pensilvania" instead of Moria?
    It isn't though, you've accused me of strawmanning, yet you continue to do so yourself.

    The quasi-pseudo germanic/HRE allegory has a throwaway mention of an unimportant village/town by the name of Essen, which may, or may not be named after any one of the other Essens in the world, whether it's the verb "to eat" (considering that you're dealing with the Vampires, I wouldn't be surprised if the naming of the village came from an in joke of a vampire saying "Zu essen" when asked where they were going. Sounds daft? Welcome to warhammer.

    When you're studying history, and someone's talking about Constantinople, do you picture Istanbul with the Hagia Sofia and the Theodosian Walls, even if they're talking about it specifically before it? When you're studying your WW2 Essen, do you picture it as it currently stands, or the bombed out shell it was left in during that period?

    If so, then there's not much we can do, other than say suck it up buttercup. It's the way this world goes. I seriously dare you to go to the Attila forums, and mention something about how you don't like how Londinium is portrayed because it conjours up images of The Shard, The Gherkin and the Tower of London in your head, so you'd prefer them to remove it. I'm not strawmanning here, by the way, this is a serious suggestion and equating to what you're wishing to happen.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Anyways, getting back to the map I think the area that we've used for our CK2 mod would work for a Total War game.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    It gives you every major faction in the playable area, and it minimizes the locations with sparse lore information (the notable exceptions being Estalia and Araby).
    Last edited by illathid; February 15, 2015 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Reposted image

  8. #68

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Cannot see the map. I don't have an account for that site.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Just reposted the pic on imgur.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Horus View Post
    considering that you're dealing with the Vampires, I wouldn't be surprised if the naming of the village came from an in joke of a vampire saying "Zu essen" when asked where they were going.
    If that's the case, that's funny. Given your way of saying it, I doubt that's the official reasoning. I'm under the impression it has more to do with a bunch of friends in the 80s randomly placing "foreign-sounding" names in a cardboard. That's my personal impression and I, of course, might be wrong.

    In any case, you would have to explain all the other real world names in the map in a similar way to make that argument valid.

    It isn't though, you've accused me of strawmanning, yet you continue to do so yourself.
    I fail to see how that's a strawman when Illathid and I were discussing about how some people have no problems with applying real-world place names (such as Marienburg or New York) to fantasy locations and can easily separate them from their most immediate meaning, no matter how iconical they are (for instance, New York), and some just can't. I said Pennsilvania as an example of (WHAT I THINK) would make even a person of the first group have a hard time doing that no matter how talented he/she was.

    The quasi-pseudo germanic/HRE allegory has a throwaway mention of an unimportant village/town by the name of Essen, which may, or may not be named after any one of the other Essens in the world
    There exist New York, Lincolnshire, UK, New York, North Yorkshire, UK, New York, Tyne and Wear, UK, the New York (US) metropolitan area, the New York County, the British colonial Province of New York, New York Mills, Minnesota, New York, Kentucky, New York, Texas, West New York, New Jersey, New York, Missouri, or even New York, the bollywood film... and still I'm pretty sure everyone sees skyscrappers and yellow cabs when spoken of New York, even when the reference "may, or may not be named after any" of those. What's your point.

    When you're studying history, and someone's talking about Constantinople, do you picture Istanbul with the Hagia Sofia and the Theodosian Walls, even if they're talking about it specifically before it? When you're studying your WW2 Essen, do you picture it as it currently stands, or the bombed out shell it was left in during that period?
    When I'm spoken of Constantinople i picture Constantinople, when I'm spoken about Instanbul I picture Instanbul. They are tied to very specific periods. Your question would be more valid if you said that if spoken of Instanbul, I pictured the modern city or the capital of the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century, and my answer would be that (given that there is not a very specific context), I would imagine the more iconical of the two. When they speak me about Essen, unless a different context is specified, I think of the major industrial node in the Ruhr Valley of Western Germany that it was both in WW2 and is today.

    When spoken of New York, do you think of typography?


    If so, then there's not much we can do, other than say suck it up buttercup.
    I'm not forcing anyone to change a game to my specific, personal tastes, but I hope you'll agree with me that there were other more generic options less prone to this kind of issue (such as Altdorf, for instance).

    I seriously dare you to go to the Attila forums, and mention something about how you don't like how Londinium is portrayed because it conjours up images of The Shard, The Gherkin and the Tower of London in your head
    What do you think would have happened if they had named it London instead of Londinum in that game?


    Quote Originally Posted by illathid
    Anyways, getting back to the map I think the area that we've used for our CK2 mod would work for a Total War game.
    Thanks for getting back on topic.

    I'll leave the room for more Warhammer-knowledgeable people who can discuss about that. I'll just say that I personally would rather have that map than the much more literal copy of the real world that the full Warhammer map I've seen around seems to be.

    It gives you every major faction in the playable area, and it minimizes the locations with sparse lore information (the notable exceptions being Estalia and Araby).
    Noob question. Is there more information about Tilea than about Estalia? Does it have an official book or something? Or we are speaking exclusively about lore? (novels and the like)

  11. #71

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    If that's the case, that's funny. Given your way of saying it, I doubt that's the official reasoning. I'm under the impression it has more to do with a bunch of friends in the 80s randomly placing "foreign-sounding" names in a cardboard. That's my personal impression and I, of course, might be wrong.

    In any case, you would have to explain all the other real world names in the map in a similar way to make that argument valid.
    You mean like the Tichi Huichi, Lord Kroak, Sniktch, and other name based puns? Or Drakwald (a forest that doesn't contain Dragons, EVER, but is a mispelling of Dark?).

    I fail to see how that's a strawman when Illathid and I were discussing about how some people have no problems with applying real-world place names (such as Marienburg or New York) to fantasy locations and can easily separate them from their most immediate meaning, no matter how iconical they are (for instance, New York), and some just can't. I said Pennsilvania as an example of (WHAT I THINK) would make even a person of the first group have a hard time doing that no matter how talented he/she was.

    There exist New York, Lincolnshire, UK, New York, North Yorkshire, UK, New York, Tyne and Wear, UK, the New York (US) metropolitan area, the New York County, the British colonial Province of New York, New York Mills, Minnesota, New York, Kentucky, New York, Texas, West New York, New Jersey, New York, Missouri, or even New York, the bollywood film... and still I'm pretty sure everyone sees skyscrappers and yellow cabs when spoken of New York, even when the reference "may, or may not be named after any" of those. What's your point.

    When I'm spoken of Constantinople i picture Constantinople, when I'm spoken about Instanbul I picture Instanbul. They are tied to very specific periods. Your question would be more valid if you said that if spoken of Instanbul, I pictured the modern city or the capital of the Ottoman Empire in the 16th century, and my answer would be that (given that there is not a very specific context), I would imagine the more iconical of the two. When they speak me about Essen, unless a different context is specified, I think of the major industrial node in the Ruhr Valley of Western Germany that it was both in WW2 and is today.

    When spoken of New York, do you think of typography?
    So out of all of that, we come down to the point that when we are talking about a subject in context, we think of the subject in context? Like how if we're talking about typefaces and New York comes up, I don't picture yellow cabs or Sarah Jessica Parkers horse face. And how talking about a village in warhammer by the name of Essen, we picture... an out of context modern industrialised city turning out Tiger Tanks and Stuka Dive Bombers... You see how what you're saying doesn't add up.

    I'm not forcing anyone to change a game to my specific, personal tastes, but I hope you'll agree with me that there were other more generic options less prone to this kind of issue (such as Altdorf, for instance).
    No, you're not forcing them to change the game. But you're hoping that they do, particularly when you're asking them to detract from the written published history simply because of your personal tastes.

    What do you think would have happened if they had named it London instead of Londinum in that game?
    My point exactly. How are you still not seeing this?

    Thanks for getting back on topic.

    I'll leave the room for more Warhammer-knowledgeable people who can discuss about that. I'll just say that I personally would rather have that map than the much more literal copy of the real world that the full Warhammer map I've seen around seems to be.
    That map is, while not massively so, still a big departure from the 7th-8th edition map of the warhammer world.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    As you can see Araby and the Land of the Dead/Khemri is much smaller than it is meant to be, the Old World much larger, Ulthuan further west and south, Lustria further north, while Albion is completely missing. It is however the most likely area for the map - although I hope its slightly more scale accurate.

    Noob question. Is there more information about Tilea than about Estalia? Does it have an official book or something? Or we are speaking exclusively about lore? (novels and the like)
    Honestly, there is very little about Tilea, and even less about Estalia. The last major source on information regarding Tilea that I can think of must be old 5th edition army book called "Dogs of War" (to give you an idea of how old that is, there's about a 4-6 year developement cycle for rules; we're about to go into 9th edition). There is the Dogs of War forum which has the best collected information regarding the official sources of that information, but you'll have to sift through a ton of homebrew stuff to get the actual stuff. On other sites, there is Vaz on Heresy Online who's very knowledgeable about Warhammer Fantasy Lore in general, but I'm not sure what's happened to him recently, think he might have transferred to 40K for a little bit, sure if you look around or PM him on that site he'll help. Other large sites tend to be a mess of half remembered rubbish that did/didn't happen.

    For information regarding the races;

    Kislev; 6th edition Kislev allied contingent booklet, more in 5th edition
    Estalia; small mentions in 6th edition Bretonnia army book
    Araby; small mentions in 6th edition Bretonnia army book
    Tilea; 6th edition Dogs of War, and maybe Skaven 6th and 7th edition army books.
    Cathay; Tamurkhan book from Warhammer Forge, small bits and bobs in Ogre Kingdoms 6th and 8th editions, small bits in Empire 6th edition, and either 6th or 7th main rulebook.

    There is a bit of Estalia mentioned in the Brian Craig Orfeo Trilogy, but they're so old in the back catalogue that the information contained within is questionable as to whether it's still applicable; the Orfeo books aren't even being sold on the Black Library website these days.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Horus View Post
    You mean like the Tichi Huichi, Lord Kroak, Sniktch, and other name based puns? Or Drakwald (a forest that doesn't contain Dragons, EVER, but is a mispelling of Dark?).
    I thought we were speaking about real world name references, not about "daft" character names. I think my stand on that was cleared with the "A Pig as a ruler of Tilea" thing.


    So out of all of that, we come down to the point that when we are talking about a subject in context, we think of the subject in context? Like how if we're talking about typefaces and New York comes up, I don't picture yellow cabs or Sarah Jessica Parkers horse face.
    Dude, I get your point, really, I do, but wouldn't you trully find it weird if the capital city of the Orks was named New York (Which wouldn't sound so different phonetically from new New Gork or New Mork after all) even if we considered Warhammer and the real world completelly separated settings and New York as a completelly descontextuallized name?

    And how talking about a village in warhammer by the name of Essen, we picture... an out of context modern industrialised city turning out Tiger Tanks and Stuka Dive Bombers... You see how what you're saying doesn't add up.
    Again, can't you at least agree that there were plenty of more generic options to choose from? (edit: just saw you already answered this) In any case, I've stated plenty of times that I don't find it such a big deal. I think the Estalian fan-made content was much worse.

    I don't particularly like the official naming, but that's about it. It's not like they made Warhammer thinking of me, but I hope I'm at least allowed to voice my opinions.

    But you're hoping that they do, particularly when you're asking them to detract from the written published history simply because of your personal tastes.
    And what's wrong with that? I told you in a previous post that if there were an alternative to Warhammer or to a proper TW-like game set in a Warhammer-lilke fantasy universe, I wouldn't even bother, but it's not the case. So of course I'd want the only real option I have to play/enjoy something like that to be more tailored to my personal tastes. And who wouldn't?

    What do you think would have happened if they had named it London instead of Londinum in that game?
    My point exactly. How are you still not seeing this?
    You are agreeing with me that naming the city Londinum, a reference to the dark-ages' city the game is set in is more suitable than London, aka the name of the capital of a Kingdom that did not even exist at the time and inevitably brings images of more recent periods?

    In any case, both London and Londinum are historical names referencing to the same historical location. It's not like they had a choice. You can't compare that to a non-historical setting in which they do.

    As you can see Araby and the Land of the Dead/Khemri is much smaller than it is meant to be, the Old World much larger, Ulthuan further west and south, Lustria further north, while Albion is completely missing. It is however the most likely area for the map - although I hope its slightly more scale accurate.
    Well, as someone has pointed out above, I guess they might want to avoid to depict such large areas of the map considering they are only superficially described in the official lore.

    Estalia; small mentions in 6th edition Bretonnia army book
    Funny. I always thought Estalia would be more related to The Empire, given the historical political setting from which the Empire draws most of its inspiration (aka the Habsburg joint dominance over the HRE, Spain and the better part of Italy, although it could be argued that it might be exclusive to the period immediatly before the Union with the Spanish Crown, under emperor Maximilian I).


    Thanks for the info, by the way.
    Last edited by HigoChumbo; February 15, 2015 at 08:25 PM.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by HigoChumbo View Post
    Noob question. Is there more information about Tilea than about Estalia? Does it have an official book or something? Or we are speaking exclusively about lore? (novels and the like)
    As Horus mentioned, the cities and history of Tilea is explored in some depth in the Dogs of War army book from 1998. There's been nothing like that for Estalia though, so much of the information you'll find is pretty much all fan made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Horus View Post

    That map is, while not massively so, still a big departure from the 7th-8th edition map of the warhammer world.

    As you can see Araby and the Land of the Dead/Khemri is much smaller than it is meant to be, the Old World much larger, Ulthuan further west and south, Lustria further north, while Albion is completely missing. It is however the most likely area for the map - although I hope its slightly more scale accurate.
    Well if you look at a lot of maps for the Warhammer world you'll notice while the general shape of continents remains the same, they tend to move around in relation to each other and change in relative size as well. For instance compare that map to this one from the 6e Beasts of Chaos army book:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    I personally think the giant Araby found in the more recent maps is ridiculous, and would be a bad idea for any video game adaptation. Pretty much the only thing known about Araby is that it had a Sultan Jaffar in 1400's, it tried to invade Estalia and Bretonnian and the Empire kicked it out. There's absolutely no reason to give it a playable area larger than the Empire, Kislev, Bretonnia, Estalia, Tilea, Norsca, and Albion combined when so little is known about it.

    As for the missing Albion, that's because our mod is set during the Vampire Wars and Albion was still hidden by the mists, so there's no reason why anyone would know about it.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Warhammer Total War Map

    Quote Originally Posted by englisharcher89 View Post
    That is my wish as well, but my primary faction is the only one Vampire Counts, never presented anywhere, same as Tomb Kings or Bretonnia. I also hope they will include lage creatures because I can't imagine battle without Varghulf or Terrorgheist

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Bonus: Concept Art of Drakenhof Castle
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I'm already imagining the siege of that huge metal castel with torches
    Teutonic Hochmeister skin bug on campaign map fixed --> http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127010

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