Clickfest speed and class icons

[Riekopo]

It's become clear to me from watching all the preview videos that the devs play Total War battles at an unnatural and insanely high speed. They never pause the game and it just becomes a clickfest without any tactical considerations. It basically becomes like a traditional RTS. I seriously doubt many if any Total War players play at that speed except maybe in multiplayer battles.


I then realized that the new square class icons that float above units were probably designed to facilitate that super high speed clickfest style of play. This is a case of efficiency over immersion. I can see now why battles in Rome 2 were so fast at first and seem to be fast again in Attila. That's how the devs like to play.

[Aenar]

Agreed. It sincerely surprised me : since battle speed has been one of Rome II's most serious issue at release, I really didn't expect them to make exactly the same mistake in this polished version of Rome II that Attila is, especially since the balancing has already been done and has taken a year or so to complete.
This is very disappointing. Hopefully it'll be patched, but still, why make combat so quick on release if only to be corrected in a later patch ?

[RogueLeader]

So you cant see the flaws of Warscrap I think its brilliant to hide the problems like this. Until after you have the game a while.

[Huberto]

It basically becomes like a traditional RTS.

Yes I think you're exactly right. They want it to become more like an e-sport now. Perhaps the CA crowd grew up on traditional RTS games like Command and Conquer or Starcraft and want the series to move in this direction. Plus CA is getting into fantasy in a big way. Regardless, it's abundantly clear after seeing this and playing TWR2 that the dream of TW moving more (and not less) into historically authentic battles is over.

Someone else will have to step forward and take up this mantle.

[atheniandp]

Yes I think you're exactly right. They want it to become more like an e-sport now. Perhaps the CA crowd grew up on traditional RTS games like Command and Conquer or Starcraft and want the series to move in this direction. Plus CA is getting into fantasy in a big way. Regardless, it's abundantly clear after seeing this and playing TWR2 that the dream of TW moving more (and not less) into historically authentic battles is over.

Someone else will have to step forward and take up this mantle.

If that's then plan, then they've totally failed because they've stripped multiplayer down to bare-bones since Shogun II. The truth is no one can predict what CA is doing, because it's completely irrational.

[craziii]

you do realize the reason they don't pause when streaming is because they are streaming? hahahahahahhaa, this topic hahahaha.

and alot of players don't pause when they play because it is immersion breaking

[Huberto]

you do realize the reason they don't pause when streaming is because they are streaming? hahahahahahhaa, this topic hahahaha.

and alot of players don't pause when they play because it is immersion breaking

Yeah I find pausing the game immersion breaking too. Of course pausing the game has next to nothing to do with OP's point.

[Cope]

Yeah, Total War is gone I think. I see no redeeming qualities of the base game, nor any indication that CA plan on reversing their arcade fantasy rubbish trend. I had hoped that Rome II was a one off but Attila bares non of the hallmarks of the TW games that I loved the most and so as you say Huberto, I think its high time that we started looking for new games.

[prithupaul]

Its not just the devs. 90% of the people making lets plays and gameplay videos play like that.

I honestly think we have multi-player to blame for this. Multi-player will always bring in that sort of clickfest starcraft loving crowd. Multiplayer becomes less about immersion and more about winning and exploitation.

Since the tactical battles have the same balancing and mechanics in single-player and multi-player, the single-player gameplay with its requirements like immersion or realism have to suffer for it.

[atheniandp]

The class icons in the Atilla previews are hideous. What on earth drove CA to abandon the flags that have been there in EVERY Total War game since original Shogun? Such a let down.

[IlluminatiRex]

Please refrain from personal attacks and off-topic remarks, otherwise infractions will be handed out.

[RGA]

Fast-paced battles and contest of reaction speed are essential for a competitive multiplayer. Slower battle is however more immersive, especially in single player. I myself also never like superfast battles, but I never hold any grudge against CA policy of clickfest, because most surely, slower battle mod would appear a few days after the game's release. Those who want competitive game will play vanilla, those who prefer immersion will play mods. Win-win situation

[Huberto]

Fast-paced battles and contest of reaction speed are essential for a competitive multiplayer. Slower battle is however more immersive, especially in single player. I myself also never like superfast battles, but I never hold any grudge against CA policy of clickfest, because most surely, slower battle mod would appear a few days after the game's release. Those who want competitive game will play vanilla, those who prefer immersion will play mods. Win-win situation

Except that if you are going to slow battles down and make them challenging, then you need to build a battle system that makes winning the battle more than micro management clicks.

Like a real fatigue system where tired units will not do what you ask them to do in a click. Or where there is a limit to how many orders you can give. A system of bigger more epic battles, fewer clicks, tougher decisions as commander.

So no, the current style as seen in Attila is not a win win.

If there is demand for a click fest RTS style multiplayer TW, CA should design one for those fans and a separate battle system for the vast majority of us that only play SP.

Unfortunately for a lot of us older TW players - the strategy bunch, there are a lot of kids today who have got very short attention spans. They've had their brains physically rewired by watching youtube videos or twitch or some stuff like that and so cant actually pay attention for longer than 30 seconds or so. Its causing all sorts of problems in the world today - such as media and news being dummed down beyond all possible belief because they know they can only have a 30 second clip - or a two line soundbyte and expect that to be able to explain a complex set of geo-political or economic factors for which there are multiple explanations and possibly more than 2 sides to the story. Where I grew up with books and journals they grow up with Youtube....

Interesting. As an older (+40) person who came of age before the internet, I agree there are more ways to be stupid now than there used to be and that electronic communications are a temptation to dumb things down. But I know plenty of folks in their 20's that are whip smart and don't suffer fools gladly.

The truth is that competitive RTS style play is more popular than strategy style. The goal of TW is to become household name so they are doubling down on dumbing down, if that makes any sense. We need to register our unhappiness with CA but also encourage other devs to step forward and fill the void CA is leaving us.

There are glimmers of hope. Making games is getting easier, and 2014 brought us numerous strategy titles with promising battles, if not quite TW level yet. For example, in some ways Darth exceeded what TW is able to offer with Ultimate General: Gettysburg -- an AI that can conduct a flank attack.

[T-Duke]

Fast-paced battles and contest of reaction speed are essential for a competitive multiplayer.

Well not really. At begin, "the golden age of TW" when also this site rised, I spent tons on evenings in multiplayer sessions , even clan wars, with the first Shogun and Medieval , and I perfectly remember battles of pure strategy, almost like chess, lasting 30-40 minutes even playing 1vs1. Multiplayer mode began to be fast paced and more arcade-style since the first Rome. Of course, on Shogun and Medieval not every battles were tactically gratifying, there was the issue of rushers players (...) who just pick all their army and pushed it forward. Unfortunately, It appears this type of behaviour eventually prevailed.

[Humble Warrior]

I put a message about this at the official forum - it got censored.

My point was basically - the devs like to play like this - fast paced clickfest arcade style. And they think everyone else does too. They regard it as been "more fun" and "fast and furious" action. I play some Company of Heroes 2 and its great fun - but the clickfest is just tiresome. It basically becomes a game of who can click/move mouse fastest.

Unfortunately for a lot of us older TW players - the strategy bunch, there are a lot of kids today who have got very short attention spans. They've had their brains physically rewired by watching youtube videos or twitch or some stuff like that and so cant actually pay attention for longer than 30 seconds or so. Its causing all sorts of problems in the world today - such as media and news being dummed down beyond all possible belief because they know they can only have a 30 second clip - or a two line soundbyte and expect that to be able to explain a complex set of geo-political or economic factors for which there are multiple explanations and possibly more than 2 sides to the story. Where I grew up with books and journals they grow up with Youtube....

Why is this important? These guys buy a LOT of games. Because of their attention spans they get bored very easily - so they become game-whores moving from one release to another. They also like "fast paced furious" action in their RTS's. Because CA knows they buy a lot of games due to their attention spans, they target their games to appeal to them over us old timers who prefer a more realistic pace, or more strategic movement. They know they'll buy the game and then buy some DLC because they're bored of it being stock.

ON the other hand they know we'll buy it - but they also know we'll mod it and use mods to slow it down. We're (big generalisation I know) not really the Total War target audience, despite being its biggest fans (oh the irony) because instead of buying new games/dlc we are more likely to play the game for longer and extend its lifespan with mods instead of buying new content - as an example I give you the continued success of Medieval 2 and its mods - people are still playing Stainless Steel. I bet CA hates that.

Well said.

Interesting. As an older (+40) person who came of age before the internet, I agree there are more ways to be stupid now than there used to be and that electronic communications are a temptation to dumb things down. But I know plenty of folks in their 20's that are whip smart and don't suffer fools gladly.

I always considered you about 20! Well nice to meet a fellow 40-ish person then.

Well not really. At begin, "the golden age of TW" when also this site rised, I spent tons on evenings in multiplayer sessions , even clan wars, with the first Shogun and Medieval , and I perfectly remember battles of pure strategy, almost like chess, lasting 30-40 minutes even playing 1vs1. Multiplayer mode began to be fast paced and more arcade-style since the first Rome. Of course, on Shogun and Medieval not every battles were tactically gratifying, there was the issue of rushers players (...) who just pick all their army and pushed it forward. Unfortunately, It appears this type of behaviour eventually prevailed.

Absolutely. There have been many mutiplayer games which are not about finger twitch speed, but how you think and strategise before taking action against another player- and i`m not just talking chess. IL2 sturmovik was very much a `learn to fly first before even shooting anything` game and is very popular. Combat mission series is another one which takes time and brains before the action happens. people who say `Fast-paced battles and contest of reaction speed are essential for a competitive multiplayer` show an incredible lack of understanding games and, as usual, are caught in their own personal point of view which can`t possible be different elsewhere.

CA panders to these short-term finger twitch crowd, but there`s also a crowd out there that would be happier with something that did not always need to be fast paced and are far more loyal to the product.

But at the end of the day it comes down to money and profit. It profits greedy companies to appeal to the lowest common denominator that have little patience and will quickly buy the next DLC, no matter how rubbish, just for a pointless `fix`.

[prithupaul]

Why not just modify unit stats and slightly alter the mechanics between online and single-player?

[RGA]

Why not just modify unit stats and slightly alter the mechanics between online and single-player?

It would double the time for testing/ balancing. It took DeI modders months to perfect their stats.

[damien007]

It would double the time for testing/ balancing. It took DeI modders months to perfect their stats.

TBH DEI is way too slow for 90% of players, even with the faster battles submod it's still really slow. I think the way vanilla Rome 2 has it right now is perfect. I don't understand why the devs decided to flip around all the progress they made while balancing Rome 2.

[RGA]

TBH DEI is way too slow for 90% of players, even with the faster battles submod it's still really slow. I think the way vanilla Rome 2 has it right now is perfect. I don't understand why the devs decided to flip around all the progress they made while balancing Rome 2.

One could argue that fast battles allow them to minimize time spent on balancing before release (which could be quite time-consuming, as I mentioned), and battles would be again slowed down patch by patch.

[Humble Warrior]

The sad thing is: Ca could make it slower and realistic and STILL make it multiplayer, except that the player would have to take his time moving his main forces and arranging flanking attacks. It didn`t have to be a clickfest- It could have been different, BRAVE and I`ll bet it would still have a large following.

Anyway, CA might not say it, but clearly they are going the wrong way and TW games will soon be indistinguishable from all the other crap RTS` I never play. The whole reason I first got into TW was because it was DIFFERENT from the mainstream.

RIP TW.