How is the health system in DeI?

[Riekopo]

I just discovered a mod that changes the terrible vanilla health system to the classic Total War 1 HP system. It's the single best change to vanilla battles I've seen. What kind of HP system is used in DeI? I think DeI should adopt the 1 HP system if it doesn't already have it.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...96-Para-Bellum

[KAM 2150]

I wanted to do it for 1.0 release, but it requires huge changes and completly turns around some weapon stats like slings or arty. If ever, it will be rather stuff for 2.0 release if we will reach that point.

[Riekopo]

I wanted to do it for 1.0 release, but it requires huge changes and completly turns around some weapon stats like slings or arty. If ever, it will be rather stuff for 2.0 release if we will reach that point.

I really hope you guys implement the 1 HP system in the future. There's also a mod which claims to have unit pushing. Have you seen that? If you could implement the 1 HP system and unit pushing the combat would be as good as Rome 1 I think.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hlight=invicta

[Saphiel]

/lurk off

[...] There's also a mod which claims to have unit pushing. Have you seen that?

Ran a few tests with custom battles, seems to work with DeI. No problems, no conflicts. It's pretty awesome actually...

/lurk on

[KAM 2150]

I really hope you guys implement the 1 HP system in the future. There's also a mod which claims to have unit pushing. Have you seen that? If you could implement the 1 HP system and unit pushing the combat would be as good as Rome 1 I think.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...hlight=invicta

Pushing back is artifical and happens in DeI too. It takes place when levy units have more spread out formation so when enemies are moving forward, their model radious is pushing other back. Do the same thing with current hoplites in DeI but turn off formation attack, they will slowly move backwards too.

[Riekopo]

Pushing back is artifical and happens in DeI too. It takes place when levy units have more spread out formation so when enemies are moving forward, their model radious is pushing other back. Do the same thing with current hoplites in DeI but turn off formation attack, they will slowly move backwards too.

I don't know what that means.

[Ritterlichvon86]

I don't know what that means.

It means that units are already pushing in DeI. The issue with the mod you posted is that formations are not held, battles are very blobby. This is not very realistic considering how Romans fought, and also currently in DeI there is this fine unit balance regarding spacing - which actually works properly. Hoplites try to hold without much wandering or turning, same as Phalangitai, and other disciplined forces.

I may remind you of vanilla and other earlier versions, where units would rotate on the spot and break up your main line, leading to totally clustered situations where you'd just hammer escape and yell "Nein! Das war's!! Das war's Rome 2!!" .

[asdfasers]

why 1 hp is better?

[Butan]

It would solve the issue of units "tanking" hits until they ultimately have no hitpoints left and die brutally.

In the first volleys of missile fire for example, most soldier entity that arent pierced by 15 arrows - 20 stones or 5 javelins will "survive" and only begin dying after they have received their share of damage. Same for melee hits really.
Thats why except if you have extremely large attack damage (weapon damage+charge bonus+any other bonus) applied, enemy units just doesnt die in the first skirmishes/exchanges and need prolonged combat/several hits, where in reality prolonged combat only increased fatigue and decreased motor efficiency (fresh <--> exhausted) which led to being hit once or twice and dying, not being hit 15 times except if it hits the shield/armor (dodge).

With a damage/defense/dodge system overhauled for a 1HP system (as KAM said, REALLLLLLLLLLY huge reworkd needed then...), as long as a projectile/melee strike "hits home" (-1 HP) the soldier simply fall down/die. As it "should", realistically.


I'm sure there is other arguments for a 1HP system, I wasnt a big player of the old games like R1 (too young).
There can be also arguments to keep a health system of 40+ HP, principally because all the work that has been done to date, has been done with that "HP pool" in mind. If today we made a patch that changed every units HP to 1, the battles would be completely FUBAR so when KAM speaks of possibly seeing that only in 2.0 he isnt joking.

[HernanU]

Well. Alexander The Great was injured many times in his campaign and I'm sure many man are more resilient to damage. Besides, a stone maybe can kill you if the impact is in the head (if not ricochet in the helmet) but a falcata/gladius in the guts or a longsword in the neck... So, weapon attack/damage/lethality vs hp is not so bad.
By the way, if a crazy celt wonded me lightly I expect die quickly (and code brown in my pants long before the battle begins) but a hardened peasent from Latium, trained and disciplined probably kill the big scary naked dude with a trust in the belly. So 1 hp for me and more for him.

[RandyRhoads]

In MTW2 It used to piss me off that my heaviest knights would get slaughtered by medium quality troops. I think this system is preventing such imbalance.

[KAM 2150]

Personally I hate current system, RTW/MTW2 was far better with proper balancing.

[Ritterlichvon86]

Personally I hate current system, RTW/MTW2 was far better with proper balancing.

I agree. It is ridiculous to see a man pierced by 2 pila still sticking through him, while charging at full speed unhindered and then killing another guy with a quick sword stab.

[Butan]

Yeah that mod seems to have real high praise. Give a job to the guy !

[Vardano]

The author of that mod says:

"As I said, if I can find someone good with scripting, I can make it *exactly* like Rome 1 combat."

[HarkonRules]

The HP system can actually work in a manner I rather like in DeI's balance; skirmishing in ancient battles was mostly about disrupting formations, damaging enemy shields and some pre-battle wounds, not about inflicting huge casualties. With a HP system this can be replicated better, as units will take arrow and javelin fire but not go through the check of "if successful hit, die, if not, nothing at all happens", but rather have the chance to become wounded and more exposed to dying after the skirmish phase is over and proper battle starts while still not taking many casualties, better simulating the aspects I mentioned. Also leaves a battle-tired unit much more exposed to casualties than a fresh one, as the HP on the tired one will be dwindled already, which makes perfect logical sense, it simulates losing fast movements and defensive capabilities against an aggressive force as exhaustion sets in.

[Sheridan]

As Butan and others have already pointed out, the clear advantage with a single hitpoint system is the consistency. It promotes and enhances a lot of combat dynamics, making battles generally more interesting to play and watch. On the theoretical part, it also makes more sense as I see it. Every weapon is treated as potentially immediately lethal - that is not to say that it will be, however. Likewise, each individual soldier is treated as either alive and/or wounded, or dead/critically wounded. Any previous hit that wasn't sufficient to take out a soldier, will not determine said soldier's outcome, as the next hit may either be the same (non-lethal, inflicting minor wounds at most) or alternatively lethal. It's a bit of a short summary but.. will have to do. There is a lot more to be said on this part, by all means.

Switching over to 1-hp is relatively easy, actually. It does require time and a fair bit of balancing, but can be done. The other advantage here - as I see it - is the unit statistics. You don't need to represent as many (melee damage, health) which cleans up the screen, and at the same time it's possible to lower the stats, making them more comprehensible and easy to compare at a glance.

Anyway, if you need any advice from someone who's already done it, feel free to ask anything at any time.

A little edit for the comments about pushing;

The entity radius isn't a thing that haves units being pushed back. What it does is to set the zone of integrity that each individual soldier tries to maintain, which in combat leads to each unit expanding in terms of the area it occupies, depending on how high the radius is set to. There is no actual mechanic in place that allows a heavier unit to push back a lighter, or a larger group of troops to push back a smaller, to my understanding. Hence, no mod can model something that isn't in the game without adding it (if that was possible). The player can, however, achieve artificial pushing by repeatedly clicking on an area behind the enemy, with certain units.

[TheSavage]

Excuse my ignorance... do weapons/attacks always deliver the same amount of damage when they land, or can the damage vary by some random factor with each individual strike? (For example, will an arrow with 25 dmg always reduce HP by 25, or will it be some value 1-25 each time?)

[Matmannen]

But I actually like the HP system. Slowly breaking down the armour to get to the soft stuff inside is a tactical challange, and makes you choose the correct unit for the job, i.e a javlin unit might not get very many kills but thow the javs at a cataphract unit and you can be sure they will be ripe for killing...

[HarkonRules]

Yep, pretty much. A HP system represents damaged shields, fatigue, worn armour and wounds much better. 1 HP system isn't great in my opinion; it's either die or live, there's no advantage gained by harassing / skirmishing pre-clash even if it doesn't cause immediate deaths, and extended combat becomes a lot more unrealistic / random.