A serius issue with phalanges

**Cesco** · January 21, 2015, 06:48 PM

First of all, i must premise that i experienced this issue not only in Dei, but in all mods i tried and in vanilla too, so basically i'm posting here as a matter of a greater exposure, in order (hopefully) to find a solution.
The problem is that in clash of pike units against other pike units you will often have a very fast slaughter. This is more evident in mods that, as Dei do, have a very low kill rate: so you have normal fights that last a long time, while pike units slaughter each other in a minute.
Am i the only one having experienced this?

**Maetharin** · January 21, 2015, 07:16 PM

hmm that´s actually just pretty normal I´d say, i mean a sarissa´s pretty much the first thing that can reach a phalangite ^^

I mean:

hoplite/legionary vs phalangit = cannot reach vs cannot get past shield --> slow kill rate
phalangit vs phalangit = can reach each other + small shield --> faster kill rate (especially if low armored/trained)
phalangit vs light melee = can reach him vs cannot reach + smaller shield --> faster killrate
phalangit vs ranged = cannot reach + small shield --> killrate depends on armor

Of course there are other factors too, but I think generally speaking these suffice^^

If you read into the matter, you´ll see that pike phalanx vs pike phalanx battles weren´t that long, especially if one side was better trained and armored than the other, perfect example would be the original argyaspides in service of eumenes against a standart phalanx of Antigonos during the battle of Paraitakene, it looked like eumenes´ victory, but antigonus attacked in a gap that had opened between the argyaspides and eumenes´ other forces, so much had the legendary phalangites advanced! At least that´s how the historians say, how much of it is true i don´t know...

**Cesco** · January 22, 2015, 03:16 AM

So did you experience it too?

I see your point, but i have to say I desagree

...as you said clash between phalanges were pretty short, compared to fights between other kind of soldiers...but not because one side managed to kill a great number of enemies, but simply because the side who was able to apply the greater pressure broke the enemiy formation...but if you read statistics of ancient battle fought between phalanges, you will see that casualties were few...and that's why, as Polybius wrote, macedons were pretty scared by legionairies' gladius, wich was able to inflict such horrible wounds!

**geala** · January 22, 2015, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Cesco

So did you experience it too?

I see your point, but i have to say I desagree

...as you said clash between phalanges were pretty short, compared to fights between other kind of soldiers...but not because one side managed to kill a great number of enemies, but simply because the side who was able to apply the greater pressure broke the enemiy formation...but if you read statistics of ancient battle fought between phalanges, you will see that casualties were few...and that's why, as Polybius wrote, macedons were pretty scared by legionairies' gladius, wich was able to inflict such horrible wounds!

If there were contemporary statistics about ancient battles, we would be lucky. So many things are not clear. Regarding Polybios' story (or was it Livius? don't know) about the scared Greeks, that has more to do with the kind of fighting and the wounds related that you were used to. A kill with a pike would normally mean a small but deep stab wound, the most deadly kind of wounding from the medical viewpoint. With swords used as slashing weapons you have big but more narrow wounds (not so deadly but ugly looking) and the one or other severed limb and visible entrails. The results had nothing to do with the terrible gladius. Firstly it was at the beginning of the 2rd c. BC and the famous gladius (hispaniensis) was introduced later. Secondly a Greek xiphos sword or even more a kopis would have made wounds of the same kind, they were just not that much in use in actual battles. And thirdly the incident on which Polybios (or Livius...or ...?) based his report was a fight against Roman cavalry, not legionaries, and the cavalry never used the gladius. It might have been a longer variant of a sword similar in form to a later gladius or a xiphos. In fact most short swords were of a similar construction. All in all no arguments for low pike deadliness and high sword deadliness.

**Maetharin** · January 22, 2015, 05:17 AM

i haven´t really looked at the numbers, but these were just my thoughts on it, maybe when phalangites battled each other they just had some sort of fencing match with enough space between them to allow small casualties^^
and no in my battles they just stab at each other, and they take pretty long did you order your phalangites into the other palangites? Mind me it has been a while since i was able to really do dedicated battles, as my finals approach right now...

**Cesco** · January 22, 2015, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Maetharin

did you order your phalangites into the other palangites?

Yes i did...it seems to expecially happen when i order a pahalanx to attack another pike unit...

**Korvyr** · January 22, 2015, 05:26 AM

Phalanx pikes are always slaughter. Slaughter vs Slaughter is still slaughter.

**KAM 2150** · January 22, 2015, 05:52 AM

Nothing can de done about it.

**Korvyr** · January 22, 2015, 06:00 AM

Is it in the way the phalanx's were made for the vanilla game? They seem to hold their spears up and any melee unit or cav unit that comes near it start "Dropping" their units progressively as the unit stand near it. Instead of a kill here, a kill there, it seems to be a counter. Like 1 kill every second they're near the pikes or something

**Cesco** · January 22, 2015, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by KAM 2150

Nothing can de done about it.

You broke my heart

A (not very satisffactory) solution i found is to gratly increase, in kv rules, the "impact reflection delay" value...in this way pike units are not so dangerous against each other, but in this way you haven't the pikes' knockback effect anymore...

Originally Posted by Korvyr

Is it in the way the phalanx's were made for the vanilla game? They seem to hold their spears up and any melee unit or cav unit that comes near it start "Dropping" their units progressively as the unit stand near it. Instead of a kill here, a kill there, it seems to be a counter. Like 1 kill every second they're near the pikes or something

yes it's exactly this effect, wich is particularly evident when you have a clash between two pike units

**Korvyr** · January 22, 2015, 07:06 AM

Only way pike phalanx goes down (And its historically accurate) is if you flank it (with missiles) or a stronger elite unit, or break their morale!

Nothing could beat a pike Phalanx back then, except from behind.

**chvrches** · January 22, 2015, 06:18 AM

The only issue I have with the phalanx is that the person who holds the sarissa flips out and shouts "I will hit that roman with my kopis!" and drops the spear in order to start bashing on the enemy shield instead of staying in formation.

**Cesco** · January 22, 2015, 07:38 AM

Yes, but the strongh of a phalanx wasn't his capability to kill 60 men in a minute! His strengh was to push enemies and force their formation to break...this is the point.
actually we have statistics of ancient battles...their are not 100% accurate, but still they are pretty reliable. For example here we have statistics from Raphia battle (wich involved phalanxes: the winner army lost only 3% of men)

**Korvyr** · January 22, 2015, 07:44 AM

The strength IRL of the phalanx wasn't to do that because generals didnt order their men to run into a phalanx.

As far as the time goes, thats because its a game - if the phalanx got 5 kills per minute, nobody would die or even think about bothering to throw their units to the pikes. It wouldn't make pikes an "unpassable wall" as id just throw all my units on a phalanx and not worry.

You should have to worry about where you position in relation to a Phalanx.