Elephants Going Loco

**Chris P. Bacon** · January 20, 2015, 10:38 PM

So I was having a blast playing a Saba campaign this morning, started to invade Ethiopia when I landed I noticed I could buy some Merc African elephants.

I attacked a city with them in my army, started the battle and main lines engaged. The Ai was actually smart and sent a unit of cav on the right after my two slingers which were dueling with the enemies slingers. So I move my elephants on the left to the right to counter the cav and while passing in front of the dueling slingers they get hit by maybe 10 stones and go beserk, run right into the back of my army and chain rout my entire right flank which allows my army to be rolled up and destroyed.

TL;DR Elephants, at least Mercenary African ones, go beserk at the tiniest thing. Is this intended or a bug with this unit/elephants in general?

**KAM 2150** · January 20, 2015, 10:55 PM

Berserk ability of elephants can't rout or harm your units. It is the same one used by berserk infantry, which means elephants auto target nearest enemy unit. Either this or having them run amok and kill them. It triggers after some amount of kills, but actual mechanic is hardcoded and a bit unclear.

**Chinaski** · January 21, 2015, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by KAM 2150

Berserk ability of elephants can't rout or harm your units. It is the same one used by berserk infantry, which means elephants auto target nearest enemy unit. Either this or having them run amok and kill them. It triggers after some amount of kills, but actual mechanic is hardcoded and a bit unclear.

I am pretty sure that Berserk elephants are causing some casualties to my own units... I'll try to verify again today.

**VektorT** · January 20, 2015, 11:05 PM

The topic name sounds like a crazy 80s music thing!

**Krixux** · January 21, 2015, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Petrobras

The topic name sounds like a crazy 80s music thing!

Is Cris P. Bacon ! the guy rocks !

1st elephant = they might be using missiles
other elephants = what !? ROUT !!!!
1st elephant = I said "they might" !!!!... oh..., why not... ok everybody ROUT !!!

conclusion:
use elephants at your own risk, because it is you that will always be at risk

ps:
Enemy (most levy)
1st comment = gosh they are more and better than us, all elite and stuff...
2nd comment = YES they got elephants !
all cheer = The day is ours !!!

**godochaos** · January 21, 2015, 09:05 AM

Initially I objected to the extreme sensitivity to berserking of the elephants, then I began to see that basically I launch the elephants into the enemy and after the initial contact I lose control, eventually the enemy unit gets destroyed(usually) and then I regain control(well.... sometimes). I accepted that this is basically realistic and even though I don't like it, its makes sense. The elephants are missle you launch at the enemy and then lose control of.

I still have one objection though, the initial cost and upkeep of elephants is a bit high given their current implementation

**VektorT** · January 21, 2015, 09:42 AM

By the way elephants behaving erratically and even targeting your own units is a realistic behaviour of war elephants.

Scipio Africanus even defeated Hannibal in Battle of Zama by using the own carthaginians elephants against themselfs. Elephants makes no distinction of friend or foe and cannot being tamed to like warhorses. They just threw the elephants to combat, and when the elephants felt threatened, they just smashed everything around them. So you must use elephants like they was used in real life: send they alone to battle and no unit to support them, otherwise your own forces can be crushed by the grey death machine.

**Maetharin** · January 21, 2015, 02:04 PM

as far as i have gathered, elephants were used in a few different ways
1)charging the enemy main line and completely disrupt them (even pike phalanxes) (e.g.: Battle of Hydaspes and Zama)
2)use them on the flank to counter and rout enemy cavalry or elephants (e.g.: Battle of Gabiene)
3)hold them back as reserves for denying a victourious enemy cavalry your infantry´s flank (e.g.: Battle of Ipsus)

and the elephants at the battle of zama didn´t rout, they were simply guided into lanes between the maniples,
as they were untrained, their handlers couldn´t direct them into the roman units, when there was an easier way to just go through...
the romans just simply picked them off after they had passed through...

**KAM 2150** · January 21, 2015, 02:39 PM

At Hydaspes pikes did not fight much or at all against elephants, most of the work was done by cavalry

That is why Macedonian losses were so low.

**Maetharin** · January 21, 2015, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by KAM 2150

At Hydaspes pikes did not fight much or at all against elephants, most of the work was done by cavalry

That is why Macedonian losses were so low.

How did they get the horses near the elephants? It was noted by several authors that they shied away from the stench and sound, one of the reasons they could block Demetrius from joining up with Antigonos during the Battle of Ipsus

**KAM 2150** · January 21, 2015, 05:23 PM

Elephants at Hydaspes served more for a wall rather then punching force since they had to cross the river to engage main forces of Alexander, while Alex flanked Poros army and forced him to retreat as his position was vulnerable. I would rather call this "battle" more of a skirmish since both sides were not able to fully rout other side. Do not look at "official" Indian casualties in battle as all source merged killed soldiers with those taken captive.

It is just one of those things when you sink your teeth more into some historical battles just to discover that they were not that much glorious (like battle of Thermopyle and Gaugamela).

P.S. Forgot to add that after Gaugamela, Alexander captured elephants and handlers employed by Persians and was a bit obsessed with them, when his forces meet those of Poros, Macedonians were already familiar with elephant warfare.

**Maetharin** · January 21, 2015, 06:04 PM

the thermopylae were a desaster for the hellenic side in both cases xD
But i think Gaugamela was both planned and executed as best as possible in these days... The only thing about this battle i do not understand, why alex didn´t just use his greek allied troops to secure the nearly broken through left flank... I mean did they do anything in that battle?

**VektorT** · January 21, 2015, 11:23 PM

It's fun that people sees Thermopylae as a glorious sacrifice today, while the greeks at the time saw it as an terrible defeat. Imagine having to leave troops behind so the others can run for their lifes... this isn't exactly glorious, you know, it's a desperate retreat.

But you also have that other battle that I cant remember the name, where the spartans was holding one of the greek flanks and the most important one since it was the only water source nearby, and the spartans was the only side of the greek line who got crushed and routed while Athens forces was doing well. Such a Sparta stupid legend, eh? Well... fun fact is that after the rout the spartan forces reoganized, came running back to the battle, totally laid havok on persians forces and even arrived at the opposing flank to give Athens a hand after most of the persian army already was on the run scared of the spartans... I mean... why the f[word]!? Are the spartans roleplaying so their battle could be more fun!?

**KAM 2150** · January 22, 2015, 03:46 AM

One of the main problems will glorification of Thermopylae is that Persians weren't that numerous ; P

As for Gaugamela, Alexanders plan and execution was amazing, but like in Thermopylae, Persian forces weren't that numerous, modern estimamtes show that Persian numerical advantage was not that much superior.

As for the OP, I will play a bit with elephants today, but I doubt that we can get better solution compared to what we have now, because there are 3 options, either keep current berserk which allows elephants to calm down, amok which ends up with player killing poor animals or with completely taking out both berserk and amok.