Hellenic hoplite vs pikemen

[kiraga84]

I know this topic has been discussed to death pre 1.0. After KAM's magic touch, are differences more obvious now??

Anyone try using lower tier pikeman against Rome's legionnaires? Very heavy Hoplites seem to hold up against legions ok but have struggled to rout them even using the standard anvil and hammer tactic using Calvary back charge and peltast attacks.

Am interested in hearing others experiences!!

[Kerzaks]

Hoplites are actually really strong, Their charge is overpowered imo. I've actually start preferring to start charge using hoplites instead of cavalry in the early and mid game to save money. I end up just having the general take out skirmishers or lock them in place long enough for the hoplites to catch them. 1v1 the top hoplites ive noticed do beat top legionaries from the front in all situations ive seen if u just leave them there and let them fight it out. Both sides takes quite heavy casualties though and u have to wait for the ap to kick in to really see the numbers fall.

I think its cuz of the nerf to weapon's length from the pikemens, but ive actually seen elite hoplites beat elite pikemen in 1v1 fights, but its always a 50/50 chance, im not quite sure whats making that difference. My thoughts on pikes are quite mixed atm. Sometimes they hold and get suprisingly hundreds of kills, sometimes they go through a whole battle with less than 10 kills while engaged the entire time. I have noticed though that a pike units starts go get more kills if its outnumbered from the front than if its 1v1 even if the entire front line is engaged in both scenarios.

i heavily prefer using hoplites just cuz they're more reliable and versatile.... and that charge.

[loony]

i heavily prefer using hoplites just cuz they're more reliable and versatile.... and that charge.

Oh yeah, charge is so good, you don't need cav as hammer. cavalry is for killing skirmishers, that is it.

[loony]

sorry to say, but I find Hoplites OP.
Pikemen get disordered easily, however hoplites... they have huge armor, huge defence (in phalanx), 2 deadliness and great morale. Hoplites can run (in phalanx) and can form a thin phalanx (hardly piercable, however).

Hoplites are at a disadvantage only against pikes in frontal combat (and it also takes forever). If you leave pikes vs hoplites, slowly, but surely, pikes will start winning, because hoplites will find it hard to pierce the formation. However, if you have 2 vs 2 fight, hoplites can maneuver while engaged and in phalanx, forcing pikes to reveal their flanks. Then you can double up on pikes with several hoplites and win.

I would say Pikes are better than hoplites defending fixed positions (e.g. fort entrances), they are, however, more vulnerable to missiles and are easier to flank, so generally less useful overall.

From my experience as Sparta:
i played a campaign for 60 turns, thinking the balance of hoplite vs other troop types is great. then, decided to up the difficulty (I was convinced I had been playing on VH/N).
To my amazement, i found i had been playing on VH/VH.
I had saves of a few campaign battles, retried them and got heroic victories instead of close or phyrric.

On Hard against Romans i found cheap pikes lacking, they suffer too much to pila and they don't have deadliness advantage. However, elite pikes hold very well (they hold well against anyone, even flanked), kill few though. All pikes need attention, or thei turn when enemy moves and give a free flank to the enemy.

Hoplites against romans hold OKish, pila are nasty, but in a prolonged fight it boils down to numbers and armor. Both hops and principes have deadliness, romans have better attack and armor and hops have way better defence (in phalanx). I feel princpes should win a long brawl, but with very heavy casualties.

[kiraga84]

Good tips!! Will have to try that out!! I don't have problems fighting other nations except rome. Their heavy to very heavy infantry are so hard to rout. Perhaps it's the campaign I'm playing now, Rome seem to be spam stacks out of Italy prime. Frustrating but equally fun.

[Best2nd]

Good tips!! Will have to try that out!! I don't have problems fighting other nations except rome. Their heavy to very heavy infantry are so hard to rout. Perhaps it's the campaign I'm playing now, Rome seem to be spam stacks out of Italy prime. Frustrating but equally fun.

You lucky sob! In my campaign as Bosphorian Kingdom, Rome died I'm probably going to restart.

On topic at hand:

I use a combination of pikes in the center and melee infantry\hoplites on the flanks.

First I provoke the enemy into attacking by shooting with my Rhodian slingers. Once the enemy has charged my pikes I use my horse archers to kill his skirmishers, while they are doing that I maneuver my infantry to either counter his flanking maneuver or hammer his flanks. Lastly, I use my lancers and/or horse archers to charge his center and rout his entire army.

[RollingWave]

Pike obviously have a huge advantage vs horses, but it's not like any hoplite past levy have a problem with that either.

[kiraga84]

@Best2nd, I should mention Syracuse has taken all of carthage territories. I've never Syracuse last this long. A real threat to my tiny kingdom. Rome has expanded to the west and taken most of the illyrian cities.

[kiraga84]

Are launchers worth building for the charge?

[kiraga84]

That's lancers, stupid autocorret.

[Findiglay]

I fought a few battles yesterday, matching a 'balanced' Marian Roman army (me) against a Seleucid army (ai), with cataphracts, chariots, elephants, phalangites and some hoplite & royal peltasts... basically the sort of army I would build mid-game as Seleucid.

Playing on flat ground I found it very difficult to win anything more than a costly victory. The elephants, cavalry, chariots, peltasts, hoplites (all deployed by ai on the flanks of course) made it very difficult for my any Roman army with the inferior Cav to perform flanking manoeuvres. The hoplites especially can engage a legionary unit and keep them deadlocked until the end of battle in a very even situation. However, engaging your legionaries along the phalanx line is suicide. Repeatedly, I tried to break through the centre to get behind the phalanx lines, but even against the standard phalangites, this proved very difficult and could not be done without huge losses. Fielding a 'balanced' army, my javelin units were usually busy on the flanks trying to deal with elephants or chariots. Concentrated archer fire can make a difference, but only by the time my legionaries have suffered heavy losses.

That said, I was restricting myself to using a very 'balanced' army. In campaign, with some planning it should prove quite easy to flank and route such an army. I would probably want to support my legionaries with a lot of auxiliary missile & spear units and be sure to outnumber my opponent with auxiliary cavalry. One tip though, two scorpions can tear massive holes through a phalanx line.

TL;DR Never engage phalanxes head on with legionaries.

[kiraga84]

I can manage against 2x full Roman stacks composed a mix of Marian legionnaires but I gets ridiculous when I'm having to fight 3 sometimes 4 stacks (not all full) . Had an epic fight of 4000+ Romans vs my tiny 2k army composed of mostly massilan hoplite and 4 Greek archers. I won the battle after 60 min counter. Its was epic. I just survived then on the same turn got attacked by another Roman stack hidden in the woods. I cried after that!!

[Ygraine]

What happened to the 1 deadliness pikemen were supposed to have in phalanx-mode?

[Ritterlichvon86]

Yes, they are. But you're talking about very early units here, like Sarissa lancers, right? Hoplites are the early elites of the Hellenic armies, which reflects in their price and especially their upkeep. Hence they are more expensive and also stronger than the average early Polybian soldier. Pikes are mostly for different playstyles, and best found among the Diadochi. Work very well together with Peltasts, a good cavalry advantage, and by micromanaging them right. Let the enemy come if you want time, attack if you want kills.

Due to R2's engine, you might need to press attack on the opposing units multiple times for the pikeunit to move in and start amassing kills - or tap "arrow forward" on the keyboard quickly, followed by an attack command.

Here, I captured my very early Macedonian Phalanx in action in DeI, outnumbered massively by Barbarians - pretty early game footage, hence very bad cavalry (sarissa) against the AI. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf68rJ4lY8g

//of course, a match up against a player would play out totally different, you'd need some reserves and more flexible troops than just 4. Peltasts and dogs however can be very effective at denying skirmisher hurting the Phalanx before engagement.

[kiraga84]

Yes the Larissa lancers. I did use lancers pre 1.03 for hammer and anvil, but after any engagement I lose so many of them for any real result vs their upkeep.

[snowguy417]

I have noticed pike units work best when you dont order them to directly attack any units. Either keep them stationary or "lock" them as a group and just advance their line forward in front of the enemy line. I also always lead an advance with something cheap to draw missile fire to help screen the pikemen.

[Ritterlichvon86]

kiraga, Sarissa Lancers are quite cheap early cavalry. They underperform severely compared to e.g. Companions.

Snowguy, it depends. If you want to collect kills with pikes, by all means, you must attack. If playing against a player, it is also important to note you can't just use them as line-blocks like in vanilla, and that they can actually kill hostile units if you attack with them, and thus have a real good purpose as actual line troops in DeI. Against the player, you also need flexible reserves because it's absolutely going to happen that he'll flank or break through somewhere due to micromanagement mistakes, which is the most dangerous situation that can happen to any Pike army.

[Alexandre Lange]

I am playing an Epirus campaign. Pikemen hold the line, get some kills and suffer some losses (especially from missiles). They are balanced in my opinion, essentially a good defensive unit. Hoplites are definitely OP. Period. They hold better then pikes, get more kills, barely suffer losses, and... that charge... man! I forced myself to NOT CHARGE in phalax formation to avoid the huge charge bonus. If is phalax a defensive formation, why such a huge offensive bonus? There is a reason (historic, maybe?) for that? Phalax don't even make sense in charge, in my opinion, as it reduces speed and charge is all about speed.

[Ritterlichvon86]

I just checked the stats, I agree, Hoplites in hoplite-formation are severely overpowered. Something must have went wrong with the tables regarding the ability. I'll try to get KAM to take a look at the issue, he's currently very busy. Thanks for raising it to attention guys.

[Zonac]

That wad introduced due too a long fiscussion over the book "a storm of spears" were a detailed description was found how hoplites fought. And there it said that the charge with a special stance from the hoplites was one of the most devestating things of them. If you want to change something then maybe lower the deadliness to 1 instead of 2 maybe ? (in my opinion they are ok how they are presented, except of the upkeep. i would love to see a 300+upkeep on normal hoplites in the early game xD ( i am used to rtr7 were each unit makes you sweat of fear of losing your finances xD.