International Criminal Court, Israel and USA

[alhoon]

http://news.yahoo.com/us-condemns-ic...051842616.html

The gist: USA predictably joined Israel in whining that the ICC will investigate whether Israel committed war crimes in Gaza.

The USA position seems to be this

"It is a tragic irony that Israel, which has withstood thousands of terrorist rockets fired at its civilians and its neighborhoods, is now being scrutinized by the ICC," US State Department spokesman

News: We already consider those rockets as crimes. However, it goes both ways: When Terrorists fire rockets at civilian neighborhoods it's a crime. When Israel fire rockets at civilian neighborhoods it's also a crime whether Terrorists hide there.



Personally I think that when a terrorist organization kills 72 people and a country kills 2200 people, there's probably war crimes committed and those responsible should pay. Sanctions shouldn't be used only against Russia, NKorea, Iran and the other enemies of USA.

EDIT:

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-demolis...234526417.html

Meh... That were temporary buildings paid by the EU... They could have at least kept them.

[Uriyaca]

You have got to be kidding me. Do you know how many lives in Germany were lost during WW2? Does that justify having a criminial investigation against the USA, Britian and Russia?
Hell no. I'm really getting sick of all the anti-semitic activity going on in this world

[alhoon]

You have got to be kidding me. Do you know how many lives in Germany were lost during WW2? Does that justify having a criminial investigation against the USA, Britian and Russia?

Yes. The firebombing of Dresden for example and the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not just a war crimes, they are crimes against humanity that should have gone to trial.

That's true, but it doesn't explain the world's inordinate obsession with Israel.

Because Middle east is interesting for the public, important geopolitically and volatile.

Sure, if the government of Vietnam, Mali, CAR, Turkmenistan etc bombed some rebel terrorists hiding in a town, and killed 2000 civilians they would get "That's BARBARIC! That's AWFUL!" from the world community and it would be forgotten within a couple of weeks.
But if Mali, CAR, Vietnam etc did that and the ICC decided to investigate, USA would not be screaming and pulling their chest hair in rage.

for the love of god stop with the anti-Semitic crap. Yes Israel is liable for war crimes as much as who they were fighting, however I never understood war crimes since it war.

Woooow there! Nobody, except you, claimed Israel is as liable for war crimes as a bunch of terrorists hiding among women and children! Yes, they did war crimes. Way less than Hamas though.

[Lazzeer]

You have got to be kidding me. Do you know how many lives in Germany were lost during WW2? Does that justify having a criminial investigation against the USA, Britian and Russia?
Hell no. I'm really getting sick of all the anti-semitic activity going on in this world

The law is something which is rightly supposed to be applied to all parties, not just those we consider necessarily immoral. Surely what is supposed to differentiate ourselves and Israel from our enemies is that we are supposed to respect the rule of law and the notion of human rights.

If we wish to be able to criticize others for their human rights failings then we also must be willing to be held to account for our own actions.

[PointOfViewGun]

It is a tragic irony that Israel, which has withstood thousands of terrorist rockets fired at its civilians and its neighborhoods, is now being scrutinized by the ICC," US State Department spokesman

So, basically, one wrong makes an other wrong right. How can anyone make such a statements with straight face is beyond me. Isn't it Israel and USA's major effort not to give Palestine proper state status which is also what stopping ICC from scrutinizing in Palestine from Palestinians perspective? We know these people are not dumb. They're just playing the dumb and a lot of the public do buy it.

You have got to be kidding me. Do you know how many lives in Germany were lost during WW2? Does that justify having a criminial investigation against the USA, Britian and Russia?
Hell no. I'm really getting sick of all the anti-semitic activity going on in this world

Isn't the automatic "that's antisemitism" card getting old by now? It's ridiculous how it's thrown around so easily.

[Mithridates II the Great]

You have got to be kidding me. Do you know how many lives in Germany were lost during WW2? Does that justify having a criminial investigation against the USA, Britian and Russia?
Hell no. I'm really getting sick of all the anti-semitic activity going on in this world

Germany is not related to Palestine and Palestine issue is not about antisemitism but Anti Zionism / Anti modern terrorism .

Even though Germans killed 60 millions of people but they didn't lose 1 meter of their land .

Palestinians who had nothing to do with world wars are losing their country and existence to bunch of Zionist who have always been like a pain in the ass all over the world . Since non of the countries wanted to have such disturbing bugs in their societies they decided to throw them away which unfortunately happened to be Palestine .


Instead of supporting bunch of war criminal , child murderers go back to your home in Europe , US , etc and live in peace .

[Abdülmecid I]

Even though Germans killed 60 millions of people but they didn't lose 1 meter of their land.

That's incorrect. After WW2, all the Eastern Germany was given to Poland.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Mithridates II the Great]

That's incorrect. After WW2, all the Eastern Germany was given to Poland.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Thanks for correcting my post , I honestly didn't know that but it still doesn't change the fact about Palestine .

[malkindav]

First and foremost I must say a few things to show my view point on the conflict:
1. Israel should leave western bank and demolish all the settlements there, peroid. Half of Jerusalem can be Palestinian, Vatican or Jordan. I don't really care because nobody can really control that area.
2. Any civilian causalities on both sides are horrible and if someone shooting into civilian areas just for fun of that he should be held responsible.


You might read this article, it might give you a different look on things.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-...b_5602701.html

Israel Palestinian conflict a bitter conflict that won't be solved in the near future due to the actual wish of extremist on both sides to keep it going. Hamas (and other warmongers) just have no idea how to act otherwise and the machine that is build around the ongoing of the conflict is to big to be dismantled voluntarily but not big enough to crumble under it's weight. In Israel from other hand extremist just crying out loud and stupid ideas that falling on peoples ears being fueled by terrorist activities by Hamas and disconnected religious leaders that have nothing to do with actual protection and guarding of those ideas, thou they know how to incite certain people to carry they own ideas (applies for Palestinian side as well).
We all should keep in mind that Hamas and PLO are not exactly the best friends and the violence and animosity between those 2 parties are way more violent than they would like to show. You can look at Hamas overtaking of Gaza strip following the elections in 2006 (maybe wrong year).
We all should keep in mind that in 1992 when Rabin was elected for P.M. of Israel both sides went to agreement that can actually end the violence. Majority of Israeli people were on Rabin side and the peace looked just behind the corner and then, when Hamas understood that he is going to be irrelevant started suicide bombers attacks on buses in Israel, the majority of Israeli people where still voting for peace. In 11/1995 Rabin was assassinated by right-wing jew extremist and following that assassination the support for left wing parties grew even bigger. Israel should have an election in 5/1996. After the assassination Peres enjoyed majority in all polls. Palestinians just should have sit tight for one year or so and they would have their independence. But Hamas just wouldn't accept with the fact that the war is about to end and suicide bombings escalated. Peres decided in 1/1996 to execute the mastermind behind those bombings, Yahya Ayyash. After the execution the bombings escalated again and eventually when Israeli election came in May, Israeli public was to drenched with blood and Peres's majority disintegrated and Netanyahu got elected for the first time winning by 2000 votes (give or take). Netanyahu was and is and arrogant piece of work that focuses mainly on his own survival as a P.M. and due to the fact that he draws his electors from right wing he made sure that the whole peace process was stalled, doing s of damage on the way.
Next P.M. was Ehud Barak who in 2001 before loosing his job to Sharon made a very generous offer to Arrafat was denied and Sharon came up to power in the mid of the second Intifadah. Needles to say that Intifiadah didn't added to much supporters to the peace process onthe Israeli side. The most well remembered actions from the Palestian side Park Hotel bombing in Passover dinner and the whole month of 3/2001 which was as bloody as hell.
After the intifadah Sharon understood that there can be no one-state solution and started going for disengagement process. Facing a very strong opposition both in his party and from the chief of staff of the Army, he changed the chief of staff and broke away from his party to be able to evacuate Gaza strip before moving to a bigger task of evacuating the western bank. in 8/2005 Israel moved out of Gaza strip in-spite of small mortar and little rockets shelling on the Gaza strip border city of Sderot. Hamas instead of sitting tight and waiting for next Sharon moves escalated bombing of Sderot (keep in mind that there is no Israeli presence in Gaza strip during this time) which forced Israel to retaliate time and again which was answered by bigger rocket smuggled into Gaza via tunnels on Egyptian border. And this is how it goes since then. Hamas shooting rockets into cities not even trying to aim to a military bases, Israel retaliate and its all is actually a big merry-go-around.
I just want to ask a question, how would Russia respond if Japan or Germany started to bomb Kuril islands or Eastern Prusia to restore pre WW2 borders, how would France respond of Germany shelling of Elsase-Loraine, How would US act in Mexico would start shooting projectiles to reclaim 3 border states, how did England responded on Malvinas claims from Argentina?

It's very easy to criticize Israel and Netanyahu and his beloved colonists/setters providing enough ammunition for the critics but how would you act if your city would be bombed on daily basis by any type of projectile just for fun of that? How you would responce if your kids yellow school bus was shoot by an anti-tank missile (keep in mind that Sderot is Israel by 1947 partition plan)?

[Flavius Julius Nepos Augustus]

Why is it anti-semtic if you want to bring some leaders to a court? They can explain it, I guess
(2 posts about Israel in 10 minutes.. I need to slow down)

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Criticism of Israel (The State) doth not equate to antisemitism.

Much like criticism of Islam does not equal being anti-Arab.

[sumskilz]

Criticism of Israel (The State) doth not equate to antisemitism.

That's true, but it doesn't explain the world's inordinate obsession with Israel.

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

That's true, but it doesn't explain the world's inordinate obsession with Israel.

The obsession with Israel is mostly because it is the only "evil" nation that is supported by the so-called world police and "superhero" USA. If USA withdraw their support for Israel, than it would essentially turn into North Korea.

[sumskilz]

The obsession with Israel is mostly because it is the only "evil" nation that is supported by the so-called world police and "superhero" USA. If USA withdraw their support for Israel, than it would essentially turn into North Korea.

Doesn't explain the complete lack of interest in Morocco's occupation of Western Sahara. Morocco is also a US designated "major non-NATO ally".

[Henry of Grosmont]

The obsession with Israel is mostly because it is the only "evil" nation that is supported by the so-called world police and "superhero" USA. If USA withdraw their support for Israel, than it would essentially turn into North Korea.

Hahaha. What a pile of horsecrap. Also about quotation marks (given the nature of your post) , to paraphrase Inigo Montoya: -You keep using that thing. I do not think it means what you think it means.

alhoon where does this obsession with Israel comes form? Among your Israel thread spamming you missed a couple of terrorist attacks in Jerusalem that left innocent people dead. But hey...

Another thing, is ICC investigating Hamas as well? Or are they as big of a joke as EU is. I mean removing Hamas form the terrorist groups list. An organization that has the Protocol of Elders of Zion on their site, elimination of Israel in their charter, perpetrated many terrorist attacks (inducing suicide bombings), fires rockets into Israel and even released a cracking me up song last year (they sing this one in Hebrew and it is with English subtitles):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aEO8XLylrM

And what are the exact charges?

[Ussaid the Hashshashin]

Define "evil nation" please.
Cause Saudi Arabia, also supported by the "Superhero" have way worse human rights record.

I would prefer to be an Arab in Israel, than an Arab in Saudi Arabia.

USA doesn't arm Saudi Arabia with weapons to kill a bunch of oppressed people. USA, however, does exactly that with Israel, not to mention the millions of dollars they give them anyways.

Hahaha. What a pile of horsecrap. Also about quotation marks (given the nature of your post) , to paraphrase Inigo Montoya: -You keep using that thing. I do not think it means what you think it means.

alhoon where does this obsession with Israel comes form? Among your Israel thread spamming you missed a couple of terrorist attacks in Jerusalem that left innocent people dead. But hey...

Another thing, is ICC investigating Hamas as well? Or are they as big of a joke as EU is. I mean removing Hamas form the terrorist groups list. An organization that has the Protocol of Elders of Zion on their site, elimination of Israel in their charter, perpetrated many terrorist attacks (inducing suicide bombings), fires rockets into Israel and even released a cracking me up song last year (they sing this one in Hebrew and it is with English subtitles):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aEO8XLylrM

And what are the exact charges?

Do you recognize that Hamas is not an actual country or a proper governing group? It is less of a country than the ISIS. Well Israel came and stole their lands, that's like North Africans moving in Iberia and restricting the local population to a cesspit because their ancestors once lived there. You are brainwashed by your government. Provide any pictures of rockets or dead Israelis? For one dead Israeli 200 hundred Palestinians are slaughtered, and it is only possible because the USA provides Israel with weapons. Israel uses those weapons against a "terrorist organization" barely able to afford a proper jeep. Not to mention they constantly steal land in the West Bank. Millions of people would sleep better if all the Israelites pack up their bags and move to USA or something.

Just look at their hate:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...facebook-likes
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/...ghter-facebook

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Chemical Weapons used in broad daylight against Gaza

What's has inspired this demonic hate? Exactly what crimes had been committed against the people of Israel, who have one of the finest living standards (afforded by US tax payer money) in the world? The causalities inflicted by Hamas are nothing compared to what Israel does to them. You want to know why Hamas is like this? Because of Israel and its injustice.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

That's true, but it doesn't explain the world's inordinate obsession with Israel.

Mostly because the world right now is and has been very much obsessed in politics and the media with the Middle East in general.

Geographically the Middle East contrains many states and regions which make up a large part of the World economy in one way or another (Oil of course comes to mind). Combine this with the instability of the region that really is on Europe's doorstep and the fact that in much of it Israel through it's actions really is 'part of the problem'. Means we give a lot of attention to Israel, Iran, Iraq, A-stan, Palestine etc.

Alas this comes at the expense of places like Your Morocco example- this isn't given due attention by the world simply because in real terms. No one cares- there no an economic terminal for oil like the Middle-East, their not directly involved with 'The West' to the extent that the Middle East is- their not a 'news' story so to speak like the situation in the Middle Easy has been, and people just really like an interest- Much like the issues in central and Eastern Africa. It's just not politically important currently, or newsworthy.

Which is indeed a shame, but that's how states work, and of course if a state is actively making moves in a region, you can be pretty sure the media is following it. The only reason Mali got any serious attention was due to the link with Islamic extremists and the fact it was France- a Western Nation getting stuck in- without the latter it would have merely been a footnote in a way, and without the former- any civil war would have only received a passing comment.

[sumskilz]

That's because Western Sahara is Moroccan since times immemorial. Morocco is right to keep it.

That's an ironic argument on your part. So you deny the existence of a distinct Sahrawi identity? And thus deny the legitimacy of their national liberation movement? What about all the Sahrawi refugees in Algeria? What about the human rights abuses? You think the Alaouite dynasty has a legitimate claim because they used their slave armies to conquer the indigenous tribes in the northern part of what is now Western Sahara during the 18th Century? That’s hardly time immemorial. They only held part of the country for a little over a century before the Spanish took it away. In 1975, the International Court of Justice disagreed that Morocco’s claims constituted a legal basis for sovereignty significant enough to overrule self-determination, but after tens of thousands were killed, Morocco is still in control. Though I don't want to go off-topic with an example that's just meant to demonstrate a point. The situation in Western Sahara is also complicated.

Anyway, I do think there are a lot of reasons for the world's obsession with Israel. You and Dante Von Hespburg mentioned a few explanations that I believe are contributing factors. Israelis usually assume antisemitism is a major component due to their collective cultural experience, which I do think is a factor, but not as major as others mentioned. I'd also add that Israel serves as a useful scapegoat and diversion for Middle Eastern autocrats. I do however think there is some antisemitism that is more a result of media attention on Israel, rather than a cause of the attention.

[alhoon]

That's an ironic argument on your part. So you deny the existence of a distinct Sahrawi identity? And thus deny the legitimacy of their national liberation movement?

That's indeed complicated. Morocco is many people united. I thought Morocco controlled Western Sahara since 1700+, before the tribes there developed a national identity.
Hence the "time immemorial", as in "before national memory". I mainly support Morocco because I thought they were around WS before the tribes there decided they are a nation and because Morocco for all of its faults is stable compared to Mali, Liberia, Mauritania, Senegal or other Sahara countries to its south.

Are you certain a majority of Saudis care and would like democracy as we know it implemented in their State? I doubt it.

No, but I'm certain I do.

[YukonTrooper]

That's true, but it doesn't explain the world's inordinate obsession with Israel.

The focus is inordinate because Israel's violent occupation and subjugation of Palestine is inordinate.