Return of the Arcade Battles

[prithupaul]

I just went through the three latest gameplay streams on the official channel.

I hope I am wrong about this but it seems the arcade superfast clickfest instant-rout battle style of Rome 2 vanilla is gonna be back in Attila. Units seem to be routing within moments of melee engagements or after they receive a few volleys from skirmishers. This is very disappointing. I hoped CA would have had some headstart in this area due to 1 year+ worth of feedback and patching that has improved the battle pacing significantly for Rome 2.

Its the way the guy plays the battles which also makes me concerned. He is ignoring formations, facings etc and instead almost always using generic RTS style select and attack. All units seem to be always on the run. Again I am hope I am wrong about this and that he is simply doing it to squeeze in a lot of game-play within a short amount of time.

Saxons : http://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/b/610218049

Eastern Roman Empire : http://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/b/610603961

Ostrogoths : http://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/b/610992308

[Humble Warrior]

Every single TW since Empire (maybe even before then) have had battles way too fast on release, then toned down. I actually believe it`s done on purpose to attract the impatient `finger-twitch` crowd who tend to buy on impulse. Then after a month or so, when the main sales are gone, they release a patch to slow it down.

Expect this in the next Total war and the next and the next.

[Causeless]

Every single TW since Empire (maybe even before then) have had battles way too fast on release, then toned down. I actually believe it`s done on purpose to attract the impatient `finger-twitch` crowd who tend to buy on impulse. Then after a month or so, when the main sales are gone, they release a patch to slow it down.

Expect this in the next Total war and the next and the next.

Rome 1's combat is faster than Rome 2's, even at Rome 2's release!

Really, the only TW with truly slower combat was Medieval 2 (although I haven't played Medieval 1 / Shogun 1). People act as if TW has gotten more arcadey over time when in reality it was always arcadey - I don't get it.

[Humble Warrior]

Rome 1's combat is faster than Rome 2's, even at Rome 2's release!

Really, the only TW with truly slower combat was Medieval 2 (although I haven't played Medieval 1 / Shogun 1). People act as if TW has gotten more arcadey over time when in reality it was always arcadey - I don't get it.

If you never played Shogun 1 and Medieval 1 and know that MTW2 was slower then how can you even come to that conclusion? No wonder you don`t get it.

Go play those games then come back and say TW was always arcadey.

[RGA]

If you never played Shogun 1 and Medieval 1 and know that MTW2 was slower then how can you even come to that conclusion? No wonder you don`t get it.

Go play those games then come back and say TW was always arcadey.

I used to play Shogun 1 for years on end until my parents could afford a new computer to run Rome 1. My first impression was: wow, the battle was so SLOW. And that was the unmodded version which I played for a couple of years until someone whispered the word "mods" into my years.

So yes, Shogun 1 battles were pretty fast, or arcadish as you might prefer.

[craziii]

HA, hearing you say that is painfully hypocritical.

please point out my "hypocritical" posts

I thought it was CLEAR in my original post I am referring to the three new gameplay streams in the official channel.

here are the links -

http://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/b/610218049

http://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/b/610603961

http://www.twitch.tv/totalwarofficial/b/610992308

please don't list the streams. tell me what causes great concern for you from the videos. be concise. on point. that way I can respond to you after watching.

craziii, I respect your agressive style of speech, it is direct and straightforward, and honest. But then dont come here and throw it all away by not backing up your words. You said page 1:

From an OP which says:

You are implying that the old build doesnt represent the final product, that the gold version will have none of the problems the OP mentionned. Do not be surprised if your optimistical claim is not wholefully accepted.
And then do not try to pretend you never said those things, because your agressive style of speech stops being a mark of honesty, and becomes only a mark of a bully trying to get out of a lost argument by cursing:

If you have nothing else to say than swearing, you stop contributing to the thread.

oh come on. the instant rout can easily be fixed by upping the integrity of units. forget months, it just require 1 ca employee 5 minutes to do just that. can you understand why I was so optimistic? can you? darrentw mentioned in one of his videos, I think it was the mixed impressions video. once dainiu updates pfm for attila, I bet I can do it my self in 5 mins if routing problem persists even with the release/gold version. if it is hardcoded, it would be a totally different matter. I highly doubt that since even the civil war mechanic was easily modded.

why do you all think this would require more than 4 months to fix or change? this isn't some complicated code, it probably works just like morale, which is just a number in the unit tables. this isn't the blob problem, or the unit path finding problem during sieges( I kinda wish ca would allow ai mods again).

why would I have the need to pretend about anything? I never shy away from arguments or discussions. when wrong, I freely admit it I just very rarely am wrong yes, as you can tell, I also got very thick skin

the main benefit of using the gold build to make the in depth videos is to get rid of all doubts, what we see is what we get. don't you agree that is a great thing?

[swoosh so]

Rome 1's combat is faster than Rome 2's, even at Rome 2's release!

Really, the only TW with truly slower combat was Medieval 2 (although I haven't played Medieval 1 / Shogun 1). People act as if TW has gotten more arcadey over time when in reality it was always arcadey - I don't get it.

Not always shogun 1 and mtw1 had great multiplayer battles at a good pace, the series didn't start with rome 1. I've played in tournament finals games where the 4v4 shootouts and cav skirmishing took about 25 mins on their own before the hand to hand even started.

[SirGerakul]

I've seen the streams this week and I agree with you, the battles are way way too fast. But, as said already, the build which is playing is from October/November, I guess for the final release next month the battles will be the same pace as in Rome II now. Rome II battle pace is too fast for me anyway so... > DeI. Let's hope that our lovely modding community will release a moral-battle mod for Attila.

[tonedog]

Agreed. Ive actually cancelled my pre-order after watching the live streams, just looks like one massive click fest with most battles being over in under 10 minutes, sometimes even in 5.

Il keep my eye on user reviews after release and what kind of patching is done.

[T-Duke]

Agreed. Ive actually cancelled my pre-order after watching the live streams, just looks like one massive click fest with most battles being over in under 10 minutes, sometimes even in 5.

Il keep my eye on user reviews after release and what kind of patching is done.

Same here. Anyway I won't buy or play the game before 6-8 months of fixes, patches and obviously mods. Vanilla is not for me since the first Rome and things didn't improve much since then (on the contrary...)

[Riekopo]

Yeah battles look too fast again. The way all the streamers is really weird too. They play as fast as possible and I doubt many Total War players actually play like that.

[caratacus]

Yeah battles look too fast again. The way all the streamers is really weird too. They play as fast as possible and I doubt many Total War players actually play like that.

It is obviously done to avoid zooming into the battle and seeing units engaging, which will probably behave exactly like the units do in R2TW. This despite the muted claims that Warscape has been significantly altered.

It seems that videos that are intended to show the game play, are always done as a click fest by a player who really isn't interested in strategic realism but plays to move flags around the screen to win. The pace of battles can be slowed by modding but regrettably the unit behaviour we are pretty much stuck with.

[InferiorBeing]

Didn't the developers claim that they had re-balanced the battle pace so as to make units rout faster but also regain morale faster, to make for more maneuvering in battles? Sounded okay on paper, to me. Most Total War-battles tend to boil down to "two armies line-up on opposite sides of the map, then collide in the middle. One army routs and the battle is over". More maneuvering units in and out of the fray sounds like a good idea, to me.

Note that I haven't seen the livestreams the OP are talking about.

[prithupaul]

Didn't the developers claim that they had re-balanced the battle pace so as to make units rout faster but also regain morale faster, to make for more maneuvering in battles? Sounded okay on paper, to me. Most Total War-battles tend to boil down to "two armies line-up on opposite sides of the map, then collide in the middle. One army routs and the battle is over". More maneuvering units in and out of the fray sounds like a good idea, to me.

Yeah that bit is evident. The advisor keeps notifying about units recovering morale. But it seems to have gone to the extreme.
How long should a melee last? In Attila it sometimes seems to last for 5 seconds.

[T-Duke]

Most Total War-battles tend to boil down to "two armies line-up on opposite sides of the map, then collide in the middle. One army routs and the battle is over".

Totally agree here, this is maybe the main reason TW battles didn't evolve at all. But the solution to that issue is not a lower morale, we need slower pace, maps more little and, most of all, a battle reserve system. Utopia, of course.

[craziii]

I knew using old builds to show off their game would bite ca in the ass. should just wait for the gold version and release in depth gameplay videos using it.

[Butan]

I knew using old builds to show off their game would bite ca in the ass. should just wait for the gold version and release in depth gameplay videos using it.

Why would CA had developed a game where morale/fatigue/casualties are FUBAR up until october/november, then in the last few months of development decided to change it in a totally different direction?

Except if they put the modifiers and values of the battles completely at random, what you see in this early build is what they developed up to that point. Its not a farce, its what they want for Attila, up to that point.
Those guys made TW's, why would they troll the fans with trailers and demos where fast paced battles are the norm, if they intended to make them slow and strategic in the gold build?


There is 1 chance in 100 that they manage to "fix" the battles we have seen, from now to the release.

The `It`s a preview, beta, whatever, it`ll be ok by release!` is now old shlock.

[Linke]

In combat you didnt fight until you won but you retreated when you got tired and were relieved by next line. I think this is what they might be trying to represent but instead of the player cycling units in and out its out of their control.
Problem is how well it works. According to previewers the battle are still the same length as last game but we've seen some that arent.

[Destin Faroda]

I hope I am wrong about this but it seems the arcade superfast clickfest instant-rout battle style of Rome 2 vanilla is gonna be back in Attila. Units seem to be routing within moments of melee engagements or after they receive a few volleys from skirmishers.

I can actually overlook this as it can be easily fixed by modders.

He is ignoring formations, facings etc and instead almost always using generic RTS style select and attack. All units seem to be always on the run.

That's the new target audience -> ADHD kiddies.
Units are constantly running because CA didn't bother programming a BAI that can recognize the existence of the fatigue system.
Can't they just open the AI to modders like in Empire or Napoleon? I doubt anyone would be interested in stealing anything from CA's AI code.

[InferiorBeing]

I can actually overlook this as it can be easily fixed by modders.

Shouldn't have to be. I don't think it's too much to expect to have game balance more or less down by the time of release.

I knew using old builds to show off their game would bite ca in the ass. should just wait for the gold version and release in depth gameplay videos using it.

Are you serious? Really?

"It's just an [alpha/beta/whatever]-version; it will be improved upon release"? Really? Are people honestly still spouting this? That's extremely disheartening.