Building balance discussion

[RollingWave]

Going through a Saba campaign, I think I have some questions on the building usefulness of the faction.

1. the tax collector and royal road building is way too good relative to others, especially the former, it offers zero draw back and massive positives, it even increase food (!!)

2. Fishing port over trade port all day long, trade port offers too little, you almost always rather have that food bonus from fish port and then you can turn farms into other things. I suggest trade port should give something like +2-8% to all commerce / agri / industry (any non-substance ) income. and generally have some other more percentage related bonus, to off set a little maybe, it could decrease your cultural influence perhaps.

3. most of the other non-siege related building in the workshop line is garbage, the impact it adds is way too low to justify throwing away a slot to use it given the scarcity of slots and the fact that all of these buildings requires at least 2 tiers of research (of generally lower priority tech!) . the bonus it adds needs to be far larger to ever justify building some of them.

4. the horse trading line in either agri or commerce is pointless, it adds almost nothing.

5. The eastern gym in the main settlement is another one of those "massive positive (+20! population happiness at lvl 4!!!) with no draw back " building. that makes no sense, it needs to at least take up food or something. (the travelling once in the minor settlements do funny enough.)

6. As Saba especially, I seen no good reason to go for fortified / trade main settlements, the penalty it adds seems to outweigh the positive, especially since one of the most important unit for the Saba lineup (that morale inspiring heavy spearmen) is by far the most easily accessible from normal lvl 3 settlement. (that is another part that could be discussed, I feel this unit probably should be recruited in some other place.)

Some of my 2 cents, if a building has no drawback, it really needs to have much lower positives, if it has significant draw back and/or is hard to tech up to, it really needs to offer some serious incentives to build. right now I find myself building tax collector in every province as #1 priority. and all but a few of them I build gym in main, and outside of 1 military port it's been nothing but fish so far.that doesn't seem like what was intended.

[Protector]

I got serious trouble with income, never happened before even with focus to a balanced building strategy. Still a very low income even after 300 turns. And I am not a noob with DEI nor with RTW2 (1400h gameplay).

I now have already tried this week 3 different campaigns (Rome, Athen, Bactria) each for 300 turns with the latest DEI steam version.
DEI submods are:
- nopogarrison.pack,
- a_4tpy_dei_submod.pack
and a few graphic mods like GEM & Aztec

At first I played as I normal do with DEI mod but for some reason the income did not increase anymore after a while. Now I stopped all campaigns with about 40 regions. I changed almost all garrison regions (exept 2 regions) into eco regions for food production, wealth, industry e.t.c. but for some reason it did not help at all to increase the income. The output is only 9.000 in total (+/- 1.000 per turn) My expenses (maintenance costs) for my 4 armies are also 9.000 (+/- 2.000 per turn). That means I am out of money or I have to diasband 2 more armies, as I did before. After almost every neighbor declared war on me in the early game I got only 2-4 trade partners atm.

So I really want to know how this poor income can be ? All regions are on lvl. 3 with city and buildings. Why for e.g. is the total tax of 40 regions only 2.300 ??? When 38 regions are 100% eco only and I never ever changed the tax bar from its mid (normal tax) position ? With 9.000 costs and 9.000 maintenence cost I am not able to build anymore.

BTW I cant promote my 4 generals for better income because above 50% influence I get immidiately civil war warnings (with Bactria). And even I do so with the 10% more tax with each promotion, regardless the income will not change for a single cent after the promotion. I also tried this a couple of times to get more money. I am out of ideas what is causing this issue. But however it kills atm my motivation of DEI gameplay.

I think I could start a 4th campaign and it will be again the same economy trouble ....

Status after 322 turns:
gameplay difficulty setting on normal
I own 41 regions in 14 provinces (95% eco, 5% military)
Imperium level V
Goverment Influence 48%
in tech tree are 37 finished (15 civil techs, 22 military techs)
2 dignataries in 2 armies and 2 armies with hero (without the 2 dignataries I would have negative income)
The income in total is more or less zero thats also why I need more than 300 turns for 40 regions !



Any help and advice for the economy issue is very much appreciated.

[Maegfaer]

I got only 2-4 trade partners atm.

That's your problem in my opinion. Most of the people on this forum having trouble with DeI, either economically or politically, seem to not pay enough attention to the diplomacy game. If you focus on it, you can rule it.

[Protector]

That's your problem in my opinion. Most of the people on this forum having trouble with DeI, either economically or politically, seem to not pay enough attention to the diplomacy game. If you focus on it, you can rule it.

No !

- 1. even with only few trade partners my trade is my highest income atm. And with Bactria I have almost no any see trading.
- 2. I already play DEI for a long time. I also played or finished about 12 to 14 DEI campaigns in the past with no any income or diplomacy trouble. I really know to handle it. In these latest campaigns I got 8-10 trade partners but all are killed or blocked with no access (90% of my neighbors are with red colored access) Now 2-4 partners only left.
- 3. my tax with only 2.000 -3.000 in total is the bigger problem because it is much too low for 41 regions income and mid tax setting. It should be at least 10.000.

[Barune]

Whats your empire maintenance at? Sounds like you have a very high empire maintenance killing most of your tax income. Are you using dignataries and tech to lower it at all?

[KAM 2150]

Currently I have 75 regions, 36% empire mainteance and 220 turns behind me. My income is at 17000 right now. My taxes are set on almost the lowest.

[Protector]

Currently I have 75 regions, 36% empire mainteance and 220 turns behind me. My income is at 17000 right now. My taxes are set on almost the lowest.

That was also exactly my experiences so far with DEI. Even with only 60% eco regions instead of 95% like in my present campaigns I have had a rich income.


But in what way will your comment help me with my present issue ?

[Hoplitus]

@Protector:

Hi!
I think high empire maintenance might be your problem. 2000 - 3000 income from 41 regions is indeed low. Research philosophy techs and give your govenors skills to decrease empire maintenance. More trade might help too. Also I would deploy my govs in provinces rather than attaching them to armies.
Other than that if Po allows it you could even increase taxes.

In my current Roman campaign (~225 turns) I have an income of about 5600 (I think about 11000 from taxes at normal rate) and an empire maintenance of only 25%. So no problems at all considerating money. But I only have 23 regions. This leads me to the though that a slow developement is better than expanding too fast.

[Protector]

@Protector:

Hi!
I think high empire maintenance might be your problem. 2000 - 3000 income from 41 regions is indeed low. Research philosophy techs and give your govenors skills to decrease empire maintenance.

Thx for your reply.

"Research philosophy techs and give your govenors skills to decrease empire maintenance".
That of course is already done long time ago in my campaign. I focused the tech tree at first in eco, building and philosophy and switched afterwards to military.

And to place the govs seperate in a province will not gain more money than attached to the army in a specific region what I have seen so far. But in the army the covs will create in addition to the province income a boost in miltary power. And you can image how challenging it is to defend a 41 regions empire with 3-4 armies only against 4-5 enemy factions.

I really think there must be a late script change by Dresden or a bug, because even with no any governor and a few trade partners only - the 39 economy regions out of 41 in my present campaign should easily gain enough money to play the campaign.

[Barune]

what is your empire maintenance at? You have not yet told us what this number is.. this screenshot from my 231 turn roman campaign shows you what im asking for. as you can see i am not experiencing this problem. I have kept this number as low as possible by using all Governor's available to me as well as making sure to research techs that lower this number. I only have i believe 31 ish settlements and am fielding 7 full legions and am still bringing in 5k per turn. I also have plenty of trade agreements because i have most if not all resources so all the other factions want trade with me, even if they hate me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Hoplitus]

Indeed your empire maintenance (EM) would be interesting!
I don't think Dresden added some hidden scripts he didn't tell us about and a bug might just be on your side due to incompatible mods or corrupted files. Managing all the different aspects of the game (finances, PO, politics etc.) is indeed harder than in vanilla or previous versions of the mod but it's still fair and I find the financial aspect to be the easiest still.

This is my breakdown:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You see I have plenty of tax-income from my 23 regions and I didn't even min-max everything to the max. And my EM is pretty low!
Again I think giving your govs the right skills (-EM/ +tax-rate) might help alot.
Also you might want to create some client-states instead of conquereing everything for yourself. I currently have two client-states and they are paying tributes to me which are tax- and EM-free. That gives me another ~1200 income and another trade parter too.

[Protector]

OK thank u both for your hints and suggestions. You are on the right way I guess.

Because now I am a step further ... my empire mainteance costs are at 90% !! Dont know, why it did not come up in all my other campaigns.
Anyhow, it says I should develope tech tree more to lower it. But due to my civil focus, all my civil techs are almost complete developed (philosophy 85%, economy 90% and construction 75% developed).

My dignitaries an governors are besides other skills are also highly trained (3 chevrons) to public order and tax boost. Maybe there is something wrong with the DEI sub mod nopogarrison.pack which avoids public unrest, when army is in town. When army is in town the region income rises significant like in vanilla.

So now my question is, what are all the necessaries to lower the empire maintenance costs ?

Thx in advance für more helpful advice.

[Barune]

Dignataries get two skills that lower it one on the authority path and one on the zeal path. If you max these two skills on each dignitary you can cut it by i think 12% per dignatry. The philosophy tree lowers it. Generals can also get skills that lower it. However the more cites you take the more it raises. Certain buildings raise it. The higher imperium levels also raise it.

[Protector]

Dignataries get two skills that lower it one on the authority path and one on the zeal path. If you max these two skills on each dignitary you can cut it by i think 12% per dignatry. The philosophy tree lowers it. Generals can also get skills that lower it. However the more cites you take the more it raises. Certain buildings raise it. The higher imperium levels also raise it.

Can u do me a favor and show where exact it is, I cant find it...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=1


Thx in advance.

[Daergar]

We must be playng different games. Rome certainly has no issues with economy unless you actually go to war with everyone for no reason at the same time.

I read that people use dignitaries to lower upkeep on armies. I put them in provinces and focus on empire maintenance, taxes and culture, works like a charm. Same with almost every single general; public order, culture, taxes and empire maintenance.

Don't neglect trade partners. Don't neglect the philosophy research. Focus provinces toward either food or industry.

At turn 140 and empire V I have a million in the bank and an income of 45-50k, with a food surplus at 50 just because it doesn't matter. Income would naturally go down if I raised more armies, currently a single legion moving toward the next objective.

[Maegfaer]

We must be playng different games. Rome certainly has no issues with economy unless you actually go to war with everyone for no reason at the same time.

I read that people use dignitaries to lower upkeep on armies. I put them in provinces and focus on empire maintenance, taxes and culture, works like a charm. Same with almost every single general; public order, culture, taxes and empire maintenance.

Don't neglect trade partners. Don't neglect the philosophy research. Focus provinces toward either food or industry.

At turn 140 and empire V I have a million in the bank and an income of 45-50k, with a food surplus at 50 just because it doesn't matter. Income would naturally go down if I raised more armies, currently a single legion moving toward the next objective.

My experience is similar. Imperium level III-V are quite easy, because you are big enough for other factions to be careful with you, while the Expansionism diplomacy penalty is still very low. So it's possible to stay friends with almost everyone, and pick your wars one by one when it suits you.

[FaceDancer]

I don't understand how it is possible to got so small income from so many provinces. I'm currently playing Ardiaei, I got 10 regions (Illyria, Raetia, Cisalpina + one region in Pannonia) and I got income 6000 on normal taxes. I'm able to sustain three full armies and I'm still about +3000 each turn.

[FlashHeart07]

Cannot really say anything that havent already been said. But why run a 4tpy submod when the actual mod is already 4tpy?
Second. Are you absolutely sure that having a dignitary in your army instead of deployed next to a city will give the same income increase? As I recall they are not ment to be in armies for the income boost.
My dignitaries even early in game sometimes raise my income by a few up to 500 Per turn.

[Drowsy]

This is what works for me;

The first generation of dignitary's accompany the legions to reduce their upkeep, while the second generation goes full empire management reduction since at that stage this nets more per turn, while keeping a single dignitary and champion in the 2 recruitment provinces for those sweet 300 denari legionary's

[Protector]

I don't understand how it is possible to got so small income from so many provinces. I'm currently playing Ardiaei, I got 10 regions (Illyria, Raetia, Cisalpina + one region in Pannonia) and I got income 6000 on normal taxes. I'm able to sustain three full armies and I'm still about +3000 each turn.

You dont understand ? Its easy to explain.

In the early game with 10 regions only, I also got 6.000 tax and income 3.000-4.000 each turn (with 20% empire maintenance). But after additional 30 more regions it changed to 90% empire maintenance and my tax dropped down to 2.500 plus the fact that I still cant find the correct traits nor the right dignitaries with traits to lower the em costs.