Diplomacy kinda is anti-player?

[VektorT]

Well, I started a campaing with Sparta for the first time. I know it's a rough start.

But when going to attack an Epirus army near Athens, I trepassed Athens territory. I forgot the military access. In the exact same turn, without attacking the Epirus, I retreated to my territory and ended the turn. Right away the Macedons and Athens declared war on me (what?). Still before the AI turn ended, Athens captured Larissa. In my turn I then attacked Athens, captured it, ended the turn. Epirus and Athens signed a peace treaty, Macedon and Epirus allied... WHAT THE !?!? Why Epirus did peace with Athens and allied with Macedon!? It would make much more sense to them have peace with me since Athens was attacking them and I was attacking Athens! Why all of suddenly in less than 10 turns everyone turened against me!? Just because I accidentaly trespassed and retreated at the same turn!?

[RedGuard]

Well, I started a campaing with Sparta for the first time. I know it's a rough start.

But when going to attack an Epirus army near Athens, I trepassed Athens territory. I forgot the military access. In the exact same turn, without attacking the Epirus, I retreated to my territory and ended the turn. Right away the Macedons and Athens declared war on me (what?). Still before the AI turn ended, Athens captured Larissa. In my turn I then attacked Athens, captured it, ended the turn. Epirus and Athens signed a peace treaty, Macedon and Epirus allied... WHAT THE !?!? Why Epirus did peace with Athens and allied with Macedon!? It would make much more sense to them have peace with me since Athens was attacking them and I was attacking Athens! Why all of suddenly in less than 10 turns everyone turened against me!? Just because I accidentaly trespassed and retreated at the same turn!?

its because you're a small faction. as Sparta you need to take either Larissa or Apollonia in the first few turns. I would start over. Either way a one region faction like that its make or break in the first couple of turns.

[geala]

With your problems with the declaration of war because of the trespassing I feel with you. Maybe it was the final straw because of the already bad starting conditions. I never had war declared on me because of such violations in later game and you were indeed a bit negligent, so some punishment seems appropiate. The further moves of the AI seem ok (if it is allowed to say something about the AI not negative): you conquered Athens, they wanted it back and the other states allied because of the threat of Spartan extremism. Would you have wanted to live in a Spartan system?

It can also be the other way round. I am playing a Spartan campaign too (ok, I modded Sparta out of Sparta for fantasy but did not change anything with the starting conditions and the units stats, only appearance, except that I gave my state a slight diplomacy malus). You should not attack Epirus in my opinion but wait till Athens is busy in the North and then conquer the city. Without it you are doomed, I fear. I immediately made peace thereafter with Athens and Rome conquered Epirus shortly after, then Athens and me as best buddies fought against Macedon. Now Athens owns Pella and Larissa and my state Hellas and Thrace.

[VektorT]

Yeah... it just felt very odd that Epirus, Athens and Macedon declared war at me and ceased the battle against themselfs all at the same time. I was not even the main treat to Macedon and Epirus. Anyway I got so pissed that I started a new game with Getae and will crush their hellenic skulls with the mighty of my falx!

[Maegfaer]

It's not anti-player, diplomatic relations have essentially a feedback mechanism. Hated factions get hated more, loved factions get loved more. Factions tend to gang up for that reason, especially against weaker factions. I regularly see this happen against AI factions as well.

If you hadn't trespassed this likely wouldn't have happened. I regularly see people complaining about too hard diplomacy around here, but my experience is the opposite. Once you understand how international relations work and you pay attention to them it's easy to become and stay loved by most factions.

Anyway, my first action as Sparta is always waiting for the right moment to take Athens. It's strategically the most desirable target. It'll allow sea trade with other factions and it's part of your starting province. Epirus will become your friend once you start punishing Athenians.

[Butan]

Isnt there "campaign difficulty" effects on player-diplomacy and increased agressiveness of the AI also?

But it could also be you had no luck, and that even without your tresspassing the AI would have declared war and made peace.

[VektorT]

Well... I started a campaing with Getae and it's happening again. Everyone ends ganging up against me. And this time I not even did anything wrong. The only settlement I captured was from a faction with many enemies, but all their enemies, who liked me for waging war on them but refused any trade aggrement or non-aggresion pact, soon or later declared war o me too.

It may be the AI trying to wage war or weaker factions. The problem is that I cannot even affort a full stack without going to the red, while all factions around me have two full stacks. So I'm always the weaker and they always target me.

It went well when I played the Romans. Things seens to go better when you choose a starting strong faction. But when you choose a minor one you have little to no chance. Everyone soon or later gang up against you.

[meerkatology]

with sparta, don't fight epirus right away, or if you do travel by sea.

I started one on VH/M -> made a few high quality hoplites in the first couple turns, then rushed crete (herordipylys or w/e) , hired a bunch of mercs, take city, unhire mercs, travel back.
then save up, repeat, and take athens when they leave the city.

this way you get to control the full province for real income and good PO. then you can focus on fighting epirus+w/e else afterwards with a fully controlled profitable province while defending a bottleneck.
sparta needs to use mercs early on.

and like they said "divide and rule", dei now has massive garrison stacks, if you fight garrison+regular stack in the beginning of the game, you are likely going to need more than a full stack. instead use spies, wait for their army to leave the city, then ninja it by eaisly taking the garrison with a smaller force, then you can 1v1 their stack afterwards. or alternatively 1v1 their stack first, or wait for their stack to fight someone else and lose a bunch of units, then merc up and go.

not need to keep full armies all the time as a small faction, mercs mercs mercs!

[VektorT]

Hmmm... I already do most of what you said, but I not even considered mercs so far. I may try it. They may give the bulk I need to take settlements early on. But I still not sure if they will be enough if the AI gang up on me again.

[Korvyr]

Hmmm... I already do most of what you said, but I not even considered mercs so far. I may try it. They may give the bulk I need to take settlements early on. But I still not sure if they will be enough if the AI gang up on me again.

Fyi Getae and Odryssian are pretty hard factions to start. Getae will eventually get the attention of Macedon or others, and everyone hates the Getae and Odryssian. Odryssian is one of the hardest starts ive ever done, along with Lusitani. Sparta is up there though. Slow units and a very straightforward warfare, and a very terrible start, not being able to trade etc.

[Mirozero]

Hmmm... I already do most of what you said, but I not even considered mercs so far. I may try it. They may give the bulk I need to take settlements early on. But I still not sure if they will be enough if the AI gang up on me again.

Try to get some NAP(non-aggression pact) and trade in first couple of rounds, then pay attention who is fighting who and consider joining war on one side, become ally with this site. Whats important is that you stay to your decision and get a friend for life. If its a strong faction ppl wont gang up on you, if they still do, you got a strong faction backing you up.

[VektorT]

Try to get some NAP(non-aggression pact) and trade in first couple of rounds, then pay attention who is fighting who and consider joining war on one side, become ally with this site. Whats important is that you stay to your decision and get a friend for life. If its a strong faction ppl wont gang up on you, if they still do, you got a strong faction backing you up.

I managed to do non-agression pacts with every faction to the south, but none nowhere else accepted. I also can have many trade aggrements because I dont have a port, and most of the ones I can propose dont accept anyway. In fact, the only ones who accepted trade and non-aggression was the ones of my kind.

I didn't gave up yet, though. I can crush their armies one by one in city battles when they attack me or when I retake the city quick. I will keep doing it. I'm in war with bost a faction east and another west, but I'm using spies to see who is moving in my direction. Soon or later they may give up or another faction declares war on them from their backs.

[VektorT]

No. I give up. It's freaking impossible. You would need a hell amount of favorable situations and good luck to succeed with Geate. Another faction declared war on me for nothing, I'm being attacked by all sides at once. Worst than that, my strategy of butchering their armies in my cities or on ambushes doesn't work anymore 'cause now they really are ganging up, with different factions bringing a full stack or more for the same battle. I will restart te campaing and ally with all my kind and help them at war to see if it works. The problem is: by allying with all of them I barely have any place to expand. I really think minor factions need more balancing. Sparta at least is in a good geographical position with all of their enemies coming from the north and some factions actually want to ally and trade with you, but Getae got the worst of all. It even starts with a very tiny citie with only 3 building slots and cant expand more.

EDIT: No, I didn't gave up. I came back and tried again and repealed the attacking forces, on the following turns I crushed what left from their armies but I still cant go offensive 'cause otherwise I would left my land open to someone else army. But, well, since I'm pretty well [f-word]ed, I decided to go fully mad. In my region I still didn't own the region capital, it was taken from my kind some turns earlier, and I noticed the guys who take this city, who is not at war with me, was marching is army through my territory. I declared war on him and crushed his army, took my region capital and I will take my chances to march to his capital, raze it, profit and force peace. Then, I will try the same with my other enemies: crush their army when they attack, take my chances and make a offensive move to see if it forces peace or at least profit from razing his cities. i dont plan to expand now, just to raze, 'cause otherwise I will have even more territory to defend and new neighbours who may declared war on me too. Eventually some of them may want peace, and it will leave me open to try to go full offensive on another. Lets pray for the falx god. I will only give up on my utter defeat! LET THE FALX SING!!!

[FlashHeart07]

What campaign and battle difficulty are you playing with? Couldnt seem to find it anywhere in your previous posts. I dont think that the smaller factions need to be balanced. That would only make it too easy for those players who actually want the challenge of being small and hated by everyone.
So start lowering the campaign and perhaps also battle difficult unless this is already set to normal and try again.
I have also had times where I have had to lower the campaign difficulty just because the negative to diplomacy would have everyone gang up on me. Also the AI will see you as easy bait the smaller you are which makes sense but this is also something that together with a higher difficulty will make the game seem almost impossible in some situations.

[VektorT]

What campaign and battle difficulty are you playing with? Couldnt seem to find it anywhere in your previous posts. I dont think that the smaller factions need to be balanced. That would only make it too easy for those players who actually want the challenge of being small and hated by everyone.
So start lowering the campaign and perhaps also battle difficult unless this is already set to normal and try again.
I have also had times where I have had to lower the campaign difficulty just because the negative to diplomacy would have everyone gang up on me. Also the AI will see you as easy bait the smaller you are which makes sense but this is also something that together with a higher difficulty will make the game seem almost impossible in some situations.

In playing Getae, Very Hard Campaing and Normal Battles. The problem with campaing difficulty is when I lower it 'cause the early game is hard, in mid-late game things becomes to easy... Can I change campaing difficulty on the fly? Even if I need a proper program to do it, can I?

But I think the real problem with Geate is the diplomacy penalty that it cultural group gets. I'm the only remaining of my kind already. I mean, I think it may be a rough start, but I dont see it getting any easier in the future, only harder when bigger factions capture my neighbour and then war on me.

[FlashHeart07]

In playing Getae, Very Hard Campaing and Normal Battles. The problem with campaing difficulty is when I lower it 'cause they early game is to hard, in mid-late game things becomes to easy... Can I change campaing difficulty on the fly? Even if I need a proper program to do it, can I?

Yeah I know the problem. One of the biggest problems for this game and also this mod have been to balance the difficulty throughout the entire campaign. If we make it too difficulty in the beginning to make it harder in the end we might end up with people giving up before they even started and vice versa.
Unfortunately it is not possible to change the campaign difficulty while playing, only battle difficulty.
But I do know that some players like to make restrictions for themselves in an attempt to halt their own expansion by adding a bit of roleplay. Restrictions on what buildings to build, units etc etc.

[Alexandre Lange]

I was at a Getae campaign too. I have experienced all you described, but I found it FANTASTIC! For the first time I lost! For the first time I was afraid! For the first time I consider carefuly every single step I made. And I lost! But I am hungry for the next try! I had all borders at war. As I managed to get only one army with 15-18 units all the time (90+ turns; yes, defending all the time, no place to expand, no money!), when I move to defend one front, another greed neighbor declares war on me. Some of them even put their armies at border from time to time before declare war, as they was watching me. I felt real threat! The final blow was when Athens (so far my trade partner, with a NAP; those bastards!) declares war and came with 3-4 full stacks (I was in terror, can't remember!) one after another until nothing left. Sparta, that have captured another minor settlement of mine, join Athens for the final blow! WOW, what a campaign!

Let me ask you, Petrobras: all was right with Getae reforms in your campaign? At wich point you have reached it?

PS: Are you brazilian (Petrobras)?

[VektorT]

I was at a Getae campaign too. I have experienced all you described, but I found it FANTASTIC! For the first time I lost! For the first time I was afraid! For the first time I consider carefuly every single step I made. And I lost! But I am hungry for the next try! I had all borders at war. As I managed to get only one army with 15-18 units all the time (90+ turns; yes, defending all the time, no place to expand, no money!), when I move to defend one front, another greed neighbor declares war on me. Some of them even put their armies at border from time to time before declare war, as they was watching me. I felt real threat! The final blow was when Athens (so far my trade partner, with a NAP; those bastards!) declares war and came with 3-4 full stacks (I was in terror, can't remember!) one after another until nothing left. Sparta, that have captured another minor settlement of mine, join Athens for the final blow! WOW, what a campaign!

Let me ask you, Petrobras: all was right with Getae reforms in your campaign? At wich point you have reached it?

PS: Are you brazilian (Petrobras)?

That's kinda the problem. It's exciting, put you into the edge, etc? Yeah. But after some turn it is just plain boring. "Oh, great... another neighbour declared war on me. Oh, great, still no allies. Oh, great, another full stack coming at me". It's great when it feel challenging, but not when you see it's simple impossible. I tried to restard the campaing and help my kind, but some of them not even ally with me and while I help one, another one fall. In the end it end all the same: time-bomb campaing to your utter defeat. It was hard in my Rome campaing when I was at war with both Cartague and the tribes north me at the same time, but I did have the income and army to stand a chance, and even some allies. With getae? I dont have the army, the income, neither the ally to fight back. Important and decisive battles are fun, but when every battle is one and only decisive for you, not for your enemy, since you cant bring the battle to their cities and something like 5~8 turns they come back with a full stack, it's no fun at all. And when they gang up your chances goes down to zero. I tried to make a move to ease my situation by capturing one settlement, but on the exact same turn I move out, 2 stacks came to capture the city I left behind. No chance. The challenge in DeI is great for great factions, but it's impossible to minor ones and all you need seens to be luck, not skills. Unless you low the difficulty, that may result in very easy late games and frustration.

I'm around turn +60, no one never made peace with me, the reform wont help nothing 'cause I dont have the income to support expensive units neither the time to disband my current army to train a new better one. I really think cultura averssion, who leads to enemy hating you and dont making any deal, should be lowered to Getae. Like I said, with Sparta you got the geography on your site, an "easy" target like Creta and you can wait while Athens and Epirus wear each other and ocassionally the romans may come to the party and take the attention in the north. With Getae, you are in deep **it all the time.

I really really want to play with Getae, so I think I may try lowering the campaing difficult. But when I break big, I'm scared that the rest of the campaing will be very easy. I will search the internet for any program that can change the difficulty mid game like Med2 to have. So I may start on normal, and when I have a better starting position and some trade income, I may raise it back to very hard. It's not just about the challenge for myself, but what scares me on lower difficulties is the AI failing to grow, and what I love most about this mod is bigger enemies on mid~late game, not just minor factions.

Ps: Yes. I'm huehue brbr. Not very proud anymore of my nick, who is an old one, since the company is a bastion of corruption now.

[Dresden]

Also a note, if you are playing on Very Hard the small faction starts will be...very hard

[Alexandre Lange]

What about the reforms? In wich point (turns, Imperium level) you reached it? Get acess to all units as intended? All works fine?