Total War: WARHAMMER officially confirmed!

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

It was a given they were doing a Warhammer game, not a Warhammer Total War. CA do make games outside of the series, sometimes.

[Destraex]

Gameplay will be same old boring is same old boring.
But I will prolly give this a go if the tactics are not just line up and die. Flying beasties will be interesting.
At least with fantasy they have an excuse for well.... fantasy mechanics and degrading the game in general for the masses.

[Skowdey]

I'd love to know why this forum has a stick up its ass about calling people out. It's not academia, it's a video game forum. Let people each other out on what they type. It isn't like this community is good, it's total cancer that hates playing video games.

That said, super pumped for this game and can't wait to lose these purists.

[Captain Melon]

Very good news for Warhammerists! Just hope this is set before this recent End Times campaign that many don't like and has a fluid magic system for spellcasters.

Oh and........WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!!!!

[Cope]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Get yer damn paint and dolls out of my Total Warhammer game.


I sure hope they properly represent mages on the battlefield, and don't just make them an agent or something. That would be disappointing.

If only Roman history had been made up in the 1980's, was a tacky rip off of Lord of the Rings and revolved almost solely around painting plastic soldiers, then you might have a point...

One of the great advantages of history based games is that they often promote interest in legitimate subjects. I wouldn't like to put a figure on the number of people who, as a result of playing a Total War game, have become interested in history, but I imagine it is a lot. Now before everyone starts complaining that games aren't designed to be educational gateways, I'm not saying that they should be, only that it is significantly better when they are. If we take Call of Duty as an example, in the old days it was game with a powerful context (WW2) which encouraged kids to research the history of the war, whereas now it is 100% trivial killing, complete with a dreadful narrative. It does not encourage people to learn anything useful about the world they live in.

That's just my opinion.

[Zwirbaum]

If only Roman history had been made up in the 1980's, was a tacky rip off of Lord of the Rings and revolved almost solely around painting plastic soldiers, then you might have a point...

One of the great advantages of history based games is that they often promote interest in legitimate subjects. I wouldn't like to put a figure on the number of people who, as a result of playing a Total War game, have become interested in history, but I imagine it is a lot. Now before everyone starts crying that games aren't designed to be educational gateways, I'm not saying that they should be, only that it is significantly better when they are. If we take Call of Duty as an example, in the old days it was game with a powerful context (WW2) which encouraged kids to research the history of the war, whereas now it is 100% trivial killing, complete with a dreadful narrative. It does not encourage people to learn anything useful about the world they live in.

This is the same with Warhammer. Its just a deeply childish narrative, which trivializes things. But hey, if you guys fail to see how Total War making a Warhammer game equates to CA just turning the game into a tacky Hollywoodesque title with dragons, nuclear onagers and 2 minute clunge fest battles then I think you are mistaken. People going on about how "tactical" Warhammer is, that's fine, but what on earth makes you think any of the cognitive power required to play that game is going to make it into a TW title? It isn't. CA are just using this to appeal to the brainless kids who like magic and robot soldiers.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't even know where to start.

First of all, Warhammer is rather far from being cheap rip off from Lord of the Rings. It is even hard to classify as a rip off, beside that it is fantasy. Hell in that case we could even point at Tolkien that his Lord of Rings was rip off of folk-tales and some myths. Because reasons. You could argue about that in some points where Warhammer may not be the most original stuff but for sure it is not what you describe.

You know what is funny? That sometimes some strange things may lead one to another. I for example played Dark Omen when it was released, with some small experience before in playing WFRP. WFRP picked my interest in some basic latin (because reasons), and then I played Dark Omen. Then I started to read more about Warhammer, which in return increased my interest in other things, as history for example. Because Warhammer lore is based heavily about events of the past (in that universe - but you could draw some similiarities to our world history). Then I first heard before prerelease about Shogun Total War. And I thought "It may be just as good as Dark Omen, check it out". And here I'm engaged in discussion with you, who are saying that Warhammer is childish thing and etc. Did you know, that in Warhammer, things are not as shiny and brightey as in Lord of the Rings? When in WFRP you received critical hit, you could lose limb, ability to walk and other stuff. In fact it was one of the first things that helped raise my awareness to the fragility of life and health. But hey, hurr durr childish dragons and stuff. Derp.

Even when you look how the armies from Warhammer look like, and will start reading about it in internet, many newcomers to the hobby will probably read something alongside "Empire have many similiarities with real world equivalent of the Holy Roman Empire". I bet that probably a lot of people will start looking about things, and hey, may even start be interested in history as well.

And it is far from being childish in narrative.

But herp derp, warhamma fur childz, mah historikul staf iz makez me so kul.

[HigoChumbo]

If only Roman history had been made up in the 1980's, was a tacky rip off of Lord of the Rings and revolved almost solely around painting plastic soldiers, then you might have a point...

One of the great advantages of history based games is that they often promote interest in legitimate subjects. I wouldn't like to put a figure on the number of people who, as a result of playing a Total War game, have become interested in history, but I imagine it is a lot. Now before everyone starts crying that games aren't designed to be educational gateways, I'm not saying that they should be, only that it is significantly better when they are. If we take Call of Duty as an example, in the old days it was game with a powerful context (WW2) which encouraged kids to research the history of the war, whereas now it is 100% trivial killing, complete with a dreadful narrative. It does not encourage people to learn anything useful about the world they live in.

This is the same with Warhammer. Its just a deeply childish narrative, which trivializes things. But hey, if you guys fail to see how Total War making a Warhammer game equates to CA just turning the game into a tacky Hollywoodesque title with dragons, nuclear onagers and 2 minute clunge fest battles then I think you are mistaken. People going on about how "tactical" Warhammer is, that's fine, but what on earth makes you think any of the cognitive power required to play that game is going to make it into a TW title? It isn't. CA are just using this to appeal to the brainless kids who like magic and robot soldiers.

Being influenced by something does not mean you are ripping it off. In fact, I'd dare say there is not one original invention in the entire history of humanity. Everything is built or inspired on something previous.

If you think Tolkien just wake one morning and said "Orcs! Elfs!! Dragons!!!!"... then let me tell you you are wrong. Warhammer is based on Tolkien same as Tolkien was based on previous mithology. There is a lot of celtic stuff on it, for instance.

And history and mithology are not really that different. We know as much about, say Etruscans as Etruscans knew about Trojans... we don't really have plenty of information and we have to interpret and assume a lot of it... and obviously our conclusions with 2300 more years of technology and investigation are different from theirs... when we see a lucky shot they see Zeus giving superpowers to their hero of choice... When we see a Tyranosaurus fossil, they saw a dragon.

Pseudo historical settings can be as good or better as historical games when promoting interest in history. I got into strategy games with AoE 1 and AoE 2 and they were hardly accurate when it came to history, still I already had the foot in and a interest in history started growing that later i expanded with my own research. Warhammer could have exactly the same effect. You don't have to be a history buff to see the inmediate similarities to history. You can bet that someone playing The Empire would grow an interest on learning about the HRE.

You say Call of Duty was educational, and I agree (even when it's a highly americanized version of history, it still serves the purpose of making the player grow an interest), but you know, if I played shooters was because I liked them, and I got into shooters thanks to Quake, so...

You are just considering that the only possible learning is that of the stuff youa re interested in... but wherease Call of Duty would teach us about WW2 and how the winners can completelly distort history to their likings, Warhammer can make you grow an interest in actual historical periods and actual historical mithology.


Warhammer has a bit of everything when it comes to narrative. To me, the Americans being the good ones and saving the world from the evil germans again and again and again is a way more childish narrative than a bunch of xenophobic, religious fundamentalist who serve a rotting dude who needs thousands of daily sacrifices to stay alive...

If you are going to critizise games for "trivializing" things, then get ready to ditch every single game you have ever played. There is nothing more trivializing than war-apologetic game such as any TW... I really feel like you are having double standards here to suit your own point of view. Total War has been Hollywoodesque since Rome 1 TW... what on earth are you speaking about...


I'm amused by your concept of TW being a highly tactical and complex game that requires a PhD to be played. Actually, the hardest, more complex game I've ever stumbled upon is called Dominions 3 and guess what... it's a freaking fantasy game.


Dude, a game being childish has nothing to do with it having a fantasy setting, but with the game design the developers choose... you can have extremelly casual historical games and really complex and tactical fantasy games. And yes, Warhammer TW will probably end up being a game for casuals... but dude, unless you have been living under a rock you know that has a trend CA (and most of the gaming industry) has been following for a long time, it has nothing to do with Warhammer...



I wouldn't call kids who like fantasy "brainless", imagination has always been considered a clear sign of great intelligence, so careful because your arguments might backfire.

And before you argue I'm making stuff up and judge me as an inferior, brainless kid, let's justr try quoting someone who is without a doubt above all of us in this aspect:

[SteamPunk]

Now before everyone starts crying that games aren't designed to be educational gateways, I'm not saying that they should be, only that it is significantly better when they are.

Thats just your opinion. if you think Historical games are significantly better than fantasy games then thats fine. But it doesnt mean that everyone has that view.

I think a lot of the Historical purists on this forum are scared of the fantasy Warhammer setting. Scared because its something outside their zone of Supposed expertise. They can point at a game like Rome, and discuss the campaigns of Ceasar,Carthage wars etc etc. They can talk about uniforms and tactics and how things should be represented.
However in Warhammer, they are floundering. They might not know a thing about the Lore,Factions and units involved. I dont know much about Warhammer myself apart from playing BLOODBOWL as a kid.
A history buff who can spend ages discussing whether a phalanx held its spears overhand or underhand is now faced with a game that pits Black Orcs against Beastmen.
Your scared history buffs. Because your elitism and smugness will be rendered obsolete in this new game.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

To be fair Beastmen barely got a chance against something as fearsome as a Black orc, beastmen relies on raiding and ambushing.

[Captain Melon]

Warhammer as a game setting and balance-wise could very well fit in with Total War game. Obviously this won't be everyone's cup of tea but why rage about Warhammer being a Total War title. It still might be named something else anyway. And everyone claiming Warhammer is a childish setting, can you define childish? Because in my view, massive amount of blood and death, monsters you can't even imagine, sex daemons, child sacrifice etc... doesn't sound like something child-friendly. If Warhammer is childish, what do you rate something like ASOIAF (Game of Thrones) which Warhammer is but multiplied by 10?

[Cope]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I don't even know where to start.

First of all, Warhammer is rather far from being cheap rip off from Lord of the Rings. It is even hard to classify as a rip off, beside that it is fantasy. Hell in that case we could even point at Tolkien that his Lord of Rings was rip off of folk-tales and some myths. Because reasons. You could argue about that in some points where Warhammer may not be the most original stuff but for sure it is not what you describe.

You know what is funny? That sometimes some strange things may lead one to another. I for example played Dark Omen when it was released, with some small experience before in playing WFRP. WFRP picked my interest in some basic latin (because reasons), and then I played Dark Omen. Then I started to read more about Warhammer, which in return increased my interest in other things, as history for example. Because Warhammer lore is based heavily about events of the past (in that universe - but you could draw some similiarities to our world history). Then I first heard before prerelease about Shogun Total War. And I thought "It may be just as good as Dark Omen, check it out". And here I'm engaged in discussion with you, who are saying that Warhammer is childish thing and etc. Did you know, that in Warhammer, things are not as shiny and brightey as in Lord of the Rings? When in WFRP you received critical hit, you could lose limb, ability to walk and other stuff. In fact it was one of the first things that helped raise my awareness to the fragility of life and health. But hey, hurr durr childish dragons and stuff. Derp.

Even when you look how the armies from Warhammer look like, and will start reading about it in internet, many newcomers to the hobby will probably read something alongside "Empire have many similiarities with real world equivalent of the Holy Roman Empire". I bet that probably a lot of people will start looking about things, and hey, may even start be interested in history as well.

And it is far from being childish in narrative.

But herp derp, warhamma fur childz, mah historikul staf iz makez me so kul.

Whilst it is true that Tolkein's literature was obviously inspired by language, myths and history, his narratives (many of which, including LOTR, were originally designed for children) still manage to remain remarkably original. In part this is due to his expertise in writing, but it is also due to the sheer power of his imagination. He did, after all, invent entire languages on his own and then added in a deeply complex world for them to exist in. The difference with Warhammer is that the narrative of its world is that from a creative perspective its uninspired by comparison. Simply renaming European countries to things like "Bretonnia" (which to me lacks any subtlety or creativity) is not what I'd refer to as inspired. They haven't renamed races like "wood-elves" which appear to have been ripped straight out of Middle Earth. Even Harry Potter - again a book designed for children - was more creative.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Obviously this won't be everyone's cup of tea but why rage about Warhammer being a Total War title.

again there have only been like 5 people who voiced themselves in a disrespected full manner.

OT:
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHHHH!

[Cope]

Being influenced by something does not mean you are ripping it off. In fact, I'd dare say there is not one original invention in the entire history of humanity. Everything is built or inspired on something previous.

If you think Tolkien just wake one morning and said "Orcs! Elfs!! Dragons!!!!"... then let me tell you you are wrong. Warhammer is based on Tolkien same as Tolkien was based on previous mithology. There is a lot of celtic stuff on it, for instance.

And history and mithology are not really that different. We know as much about, say Etruscans as Etruscans knew about Trojans... we don't really have plenty of information and we have to interpret and assume a lot of it... and obviously our conclusions with 2300 more years of technology and investigation are different from theirs... when we see a lucky shot they see Zeus giving superpowers to their hero of choice... When we see a Tyranosaurus fossil, they saw a dragon.

Pseudo historical settings can be as good or better as historical games when promoting interest in history. I got into strategy games with AoE 1 and AoE 2 and they were hardly accurate when it came to history, still I already had the foot in and a interest in history started growing that later i expanded with my own research. Warhammer could have exactly the same effect. You don't have to be a history buff to see the inmediate similarities to history. You can bet that someone playing The Empire would grow an interest on learning about the HRE.

You say Call of Duty was educational, and I agree (even when it's a highly americanized version of history, it still serves the purpose of making the player grow an interest), but you know, if I played shooters was because I liked them, and I got into shooters thanks to Quake, so...

You are just considering that the only possible learning is that of the stuff youa re interested in... but wherease Call of Duty would teach us about WW2 and how the winners can completelly distort history to their likings, Warhammer can make you grow an interest in actual historical periods and actual historical mithology.


Warhammer has a bit of everything when it comes to narrative. To me, the Americans being the good ones and saving the world from the evil germans again and again and again is a way more childish narrative than a bunch of xenophobic, religious fundamentalist who serve a rotting dude who needs thousands of daily sacrifices to stay alive...

If you are going to critizise games for "trivializing" things, then get ready to ditch every single game you have ever played. There is nothing more trivializing than war-apologetic game such as any TW... I really feel like you are having double standards here to suit your own point of view. Total War has been Hollywoodesque since Rome 1 TW... what on earth are you speaking about...


I'm amused by your concept of TW being a highly tactical and complex game that requires a PhD to be played. Actually, the hardest, more complex game I've ever stumbled upon is called Dominions 3 and guess what... it's a freaking fantasy game.


Dude, a game being childish has nothing to do with it having a fantasy setting, but with the game design the developers choose... you can have extremelly casual historical games and really complex and tactical fantasy games. And yes, Warhammer TW will probably end up being a game for casuals... but dude, unless you have been living under a rock you know that has a trend CA (and most of the gaming industry) has been following for a long time, it has nothing to do with Warhammer...



I wouldn't call kids who like fantasy "brainless", imagination has always been considered a clear sign of great intelligence, so careful because your arguments might backfire.

And before you argue I'm making stuff up and judge me as an inferior, brainless kid, let's justr try quoting someone who is without a doubt above all of us in this aspect:

What I'm saying is that Warhammer fantasy specifically uninspired in my view. Your picture of Einstein serves my purpose, since Warhammer, again in my opinion, demonstrates a lack of imagination.

[SteamPunk]

Just because the theme of Warhammer might be "dark" doesn't make it any less puerile. Whilst it is true that Tolkein's literature was obviously inspired by language, myths and history, his narratives (many of which, including LOTR, were originally designed for children) still manage to remain remarkably original. In part this is due to his expertise in writing, but it is also due to the sheer power of his imagination. He did, after all, invent entire languages on his own and then added in a deeply complex world for them to exist in. The difference with Warhammer is that the narrative of its world is that from a creative perspective its incredibly uninspired and infantile. Simply renaming European countries to things like "Bretonnia" (which lacks any subtlety or creativity at all) can hardly be considered as inspired. They couldn't even be bothered to rename races like "wood-elves" which were obviously just ripped straight out of Middle Earth. Even Harry Potter - again a book designed for children - was vastly more creative. I mean are you trying to tell me that "Beastmen" and "Daemons of Chaos" are deeply thoughtful? Five year olds routinely imagine more creatively than that.

From what i can gather from your posts, you seem upset at the level of creativity in the Warhammer world. Five year olds are more creative?? perhaps. But how many five year olds have turned their puerile and un-imaginative creations into a worldwide business. GW have shops all over the world, produce books,magazines and films to a massive audience??
Your just upset because because your not getting what you want in a computer game.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

From what i can gather from your posts, you seem upset at the level of creativity in the Warhammer world. Five year olds are more creative?? perhaps. But how many five year olds have turned their puerile and un-imaginative creations into a worldwide business. GW have shops all over the world, produce books,magazines and films to a massive audience??
Your just upset because because your not getting what you want in a computer game.

And in some insane good cases great examples of the moral grey area.

[HigoChumbo]

Just because the theme of Warhammer might be "dark" doesn't make it any less puerile. Whilst it is true that Tolkein's literature was obviously inspired by language, myths and history, his narratives (many of which, including LOTR, were originally designed for children) still manage to remain remarkably original. In part this is due to his expertise in writing, but it is also due to the sheer power of his imagination. He did, after all, invent entire languages on his own and then added in a deeply complex world for them to exist in. The difference with Warhammer is that the narrative of its world is that from a creative perspective its incredibly uninspired and infantile. Simply renaming European countries to things like "Bretonnia" (which lacks any subtlety or creativity at all) can hardly be considered as inspired. They couldn't even be bothered to rename races like "wood-elves" which were obviously just ripped straight out of Middle Earth. Even Harry Potter - again a book designed for children - was vastly more creative. I mean are you trying to tell me that "Beastmen" and "Daemons of Chaos" are deeply thoughtful? Five year olds routinely imagine more creatively than that.

Ok, so let's just use your arguments to say that Tolkien didn't even bother to rename races like orcs, dwarves and elves or how he completelly ripped off The Ring of the Nibelung. Jesus... it's like he just cared about selling dlcs!


Comparing Warhammer's lore to Tolkien's books is like complaining about how much TW sucks because your school textbook is much more uselful to pass your final tests.

[SteamPunk]

[Cope]

From what i can gather from your posts, you seem upset at the level of creativity in the Warhammer world. Five year olds are more creative?? perhaps. But how many five year olds have turned their puerile and un-imaginative creations into a worldwide business. GW have shops all over the world, produce books,magazines and films to a massive audience??

You are implicitly equating success to quality. In other words, you are saying that because something is popular, it must be good.

[HigoChumbo]

"Dude" I'm not arguing that fantasy is the problem. What I'm saying is that Warhammer fantasy specifically is banal and uninspired which is why its for children (teenagers). Your picture of Einstein serves my purpose, since Warhammer demonstrates a complete lack of imagination.

Excuse me, but yes you are. You are specifically and constantly using "dragons" as an argument to debunk the game, for instance.

I already proved to you that dragons have nothing to do with maturity pointing out that Game of Thrones has dragons and it's hardly a kid's show. Still, you continuse to use the argument.



If you are complaining about Warhammer being uninspired in many areas, then I agree, but if you are saying that the game will suck just because it's set in the Warhammer universe, when it allows for the chance of creating a trully fresh and unique game, then I fear you are completelly off the track. From a plain game design point of view, Warhammer is just pure gold for CA, provided they are up to the task. The fact that you don't like the setting does not mean the game has to be bad. I have no interest whatsoever in the timeframe of Fall of the Samurai and it is however regarded as one of the best expansions in the whole franchise.

You keep denying it and I can't help it but feel like its not so much about your own opinion but about the fact that you already went too far to take a step back and now it's only pride talking.


I am the first one who said that Warhammer has a lot of room for improvement (and I specifically mentioned the uninspired map, now that you say it), but that does not take away the fact that it has the potential to become a legendary game if done properly. I would be (and am) way more concerned about the lack proficiency at making games that CA is showing lately than about the setting.

[Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf]

Now, what a mountain of crap some people post here.^^ As I could tell you (I wrote an article about that for a pc games mag) tabletop games are the reason this forum exists. All strategy games of modern concept on pc and tabletop have the same origin, the "Kriegsspiel" of the prussian army command, used to train officers how to use terrain and solid tactics to beat the enemy. Just shortly before the first world war there was a huge Kriegsspiel with about 100 participants of colonels rank or higher including the high command of the german army, the Reichswehr. The results of the game weren't taken into account as the "attackers" were stopped by the "defenders"...which shouldn't have been possible in opinion of the higher command ranks. So it had to be a "bug" in the game...what it wasn't as was to be observed only months later.

This Kriegsspiel was hugely popular in Germany and expanded even to Russia, Great Britain and the USA were it sparked the development of role playing games like Dungeons & Dragons and, not surprisingly, tabletops like Warhammer Fantasy.

So, to all these guys saying tabletops are toys...tabletop is what developed from the original officers training method of the german Reichswehr and a whole bunch of other great armies and their commanding officers in the times where no computer simulations existed (and don't come with TW is an accurate sim^^). By the way: the only European army not using the Kriegsspiel für education for its officers was the Imperial Russian Army...they started one big Kriegsspiel before the beginning of WW1 and never finished it because they couldn't stop arguing with the judges...make of that what you want.

Just quoting myself about Warhammer not being historically interesting and stuff.