Overly Experienced Slaves in Slave Revolts?

**mikea4** · January 11, 2015, 11:06 PM

Hi,

I'm thinking that this is just a problem with Rome 2, and not with D.E.I, but I was wondering if there is any way that the experience of Slaves in slave revolts could be toned down.
This is an example of what I mean from my current Suebi campaign. It is the aftermath of a battle where the slaves attacked my army while my army was in patrol region stance thus
resulting in an ambush battle. Needless to say, I lost.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The slave army that spawned already had silver chevrons, whereas my army, which I have fought most of my battles with, are still in the bronze chevron area of experience. To me personally, this does not seem all together logical. It seems like slaves should be relatively inexperienced.

Is there any way to possibly tone down the experience of slave army spawns, or is this something that is hard-coded in the engine?

Apart from this, this is a fun campaign, and I really love everything you've done with the mod!!!

**Grizwald714** · January 12, 2015, 12:22 AM

I believe Dresden was looking into this if I rember right he was able to make them lesser quality troops but wasn't able to change their experience levels.

**Christofferson** · January 12, 2015, 12:25 AM

I'm sorry that this is off topic, but how did you manage to create a confederation as one of the German factions? I've been playing as Suebi and have become quite powerful, yet I still can't convince my German ally (the Lugii) to join in a confederation even though they're considerably weaker than I am. Any tips?

**mikea4** · January 12, 2015, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by Grizwald714

I believe Dresden was looking into this if I rember right he was able to make them lesser quality troops but wasn't able to change their experience levels.

yeah, I was thinking that this would be something that couldn't be changed, but I figured that I would check, just in case. It isn't too hard to deal with however, so it isn't too much of a problem, It is just a little disconcerting to me to see a silver chevron stack appear and wipe out my best army due to poor planning on my part.

Originally Posted by Christofferson

I'm sorry that this is off topic, but how did you manage to create a confederation as one of the German factions? I've been playing as Suebi and have become quite powerful, yet I still can't convince my German ally (the Lugii) to join in a confederation even though they're considerably weaker than I am. Any tips?

I was never able to do it through peaceful means, so in the end I had to make the Frisii (I think) an offer they couldn't refuse. I declared war on them, defeated their only land army, and demanded they join my confederation in return for peace. They agreed and I got their two settlements and their navy.

**Krixux** · January 12, 2015, 02:18 AM

To OP

I usually wait 2 or 3 turns, and their number will be seriously depleted.
Then , and only then I attack with a full Army and as a rule I win.
No because I'm good but because they field 1/3 or even 1/4 of initial strength.
Slave armies never attacked a city in my games just raiding.
I can live with that for 2 or 3 turns.
Then is "heroic" victory" and they are gone...

**Krieg_Boy** · January 12, 2015, 03:26 AM

Thug life rebels

**Ivan_Moscavich** · January 12, 2015, 02:32 PM

As a sort of excuse. You could say the increased experience they have is a way to show their desperate desire to be free.

Desperation is historically acknowledged to make a man fight harder.

**NYG 5** · January 12, 2015, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Ivan_Moscavich

As a sort of excuse. You could say the increased experience they have is a way to show their desperate desire to be free.

Desperation is historically acknowledged to make a man fight harder.

Exactly.

**rjacko10** · January 12, 2015, 03:30 PM

But where do they get their sharp weapons, painted shields and horses from?

A few might be able to steal some good gear, but almost all 5000 of them!?

P.S just playing devil's advocate in this debate. I know dei are trying/tried to sort out a better slave rebellion.

**Ivan_Moscavich** · January 12, 2015, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by rjacko10

But where do they get their sharp weapons, painted shields and horses from?

A few might be able to steal some good gear, but almost all 5000 of them!?

P.S just playing devil's advocate in this debate. I know dei are trying/tried to sort out a better slave rebellion.

It's not like weapons depots (or whatever the equivalent such thing back then was) in smaller territories were guarded with machineguns like they are these days.

I imagine 5000 highly motivated, unarmed or lightly armed slaves could successfully raid a depot guarded by a few hundred troops.

Although, farming implements would be readily available. And things like slings, bows, and spears you could fashion for yourself very easily.

The horses are harder to make an explanation for, but since it's usually only the general unit that is mounted. You could figure it easy enough to just get a handful of horses.

**TheOrangeProject** · January 12, 2015, 05:26 PM

In my latest plays, the slaves acutally attacked the city, I lost, but they didn't take it, maybe just did some looting. I would be great to some rebel cities or even empires

**largejack** · January 12, 2015, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by mikea4

Hi,

I'm thinking that this is just a problem with Rome 2, and not with D.E.I, but I was wondering if there is any way that the experience of Slaves in slave revolts could be toned down.
This is an example of what I mean from my current Suebi campaign. It is the aftermath of a battle where the slaves attacked my army while my army was in patrol region stance thus
resulting in an ambush battle. Needless to say, I lost.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The slave army that spawned already had silver chevrons, whereas my army, which I have fought most of my battles with, are still in the bronze chevron area of experience. To me personally, this does not seem all together logical. It seems like slaves should be relatively inexperienced.

Is there any way to possibly tone down the experience of slave army spawns, or is this something that is hard-coded in the engine?

Apart from this, this is a fun campaign, and I really love everything you've done with the mod!!!

Life as a slave was very tough, and when you've lost everything you lose it! A few months training in the hills, desperately trying to survive against the odd, with the passion of freedom as your banner and you'd be amazed how well men would fight. As long as they're not crack units with the best armour and weapons at their disposal, I have absolutely no problem with this. They need to have some strength or there's no point having them in the game. Also remember some of them would have been gladiators or captured enemy combatants (that's how you generate slaves in the game), so there is a chance they would have already been experienced in warfare.

**mikea4** · January 12, 2015, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by largejack

Life as a slave was very tough, and when you've lost everything you lose it! A few months training in the hills, desperately trying to survive against the odd, with the passion of freedom as your banner and you'd be amazed how well men would fight. As long as they're not crack units with the best armour and weapons at their disposal, I have absolutely no problem with this. They need to have some strength or there's no point having them in the game. Also remember some of them would have been gladiators or captured enemy combatants (that's how you generate slaves in the game), so there is a chance they would have already been experienced in warfare.

While I agree that life as a slave was very tough and that slaves would fight hard for freedom, it is my opinion that silver chevrons in experience is overdoing it a little. Especially if you consider the fact that my army had fought a total of 13 battles before this. By then, (at least to me) my army should have been at least a little bit more experienced than a rag-tag group of slaves, most of whom would have probably never held a weapon in their lives, even if you account for the chance that some of the men were former soldiers. In my opinion, the amount of experience that slave units have should be around 1 or at most 2 bronze chevrons, maybe even a morale boost to symbolize the slave's will to be free.

However, all this said, I do understand the gameplay reasons for slave armies being very experienced. It would be a very boring event in game if you could easily beat the uprising in the same turn that they popped up. It would be cool if slave armies could be coded in such a way that whenever they attacked you it was an ambush battle, this would represent the fact that most slave armies would have to rely on guerilla tactics rather than head on field battles to be successful. Meanwhile, if you attacked them, then the battle should be a regular field battle. However, I think some players might not like a mechanic like this. I think that something should be done, but I'm not altogether sure what could be done that is both feasible, and will still keep a little bit of a challenge with slave revolts.

**largejack** · January 13, 2015, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by mikea4

While I agree that life as a slave was very tough and that slaves would fight hard for freedom, it is my opinion that silver chevrons in experience is overdoing it a little. Especially if you consider the fact that my army had fought a total of 13 battles before this. By then, (at least to me) my army should have been at least a little bit more experienced than a rag-tag group of slaves, most of whom would have probably never held a weapon in their lives, even if you account for the chance that some of the men were former soldiers. In my opinion, the amount of experience that slave units have should be around 1 or at most 2 bronze chevrons, maybe even a morale boost to symbolize the slave's will to be free.

However, all this said, I do understand the gameplay reasons for slave armies being very experienced. It would be a very boring event in game if you could easily beat the uprising in the same turn that they popped up. It would be cool if slave armies could be coded in such a way that whenever they attacked you it was an ambush battle, this would represent the fact that most slave armies would have to rely on guerilla tactics rather than head on field battles to be successful. Meanwhile, if you attacked them, then the battle should be a regular field battle. However, I think some players might not like a mechanic like this. I think that something should be done, but I'm not altogether sure what could be done that is both feasible, and will still keep a little bit of a challenge with slave revolts.

You make good points. I'm not sure chevrons are the right way too, but I think something that could make the army feel slave-like but at the same time incredibly aggressive and determined would be great for the game. Ambushes do sound like a good idea, so the slave armies would need to be invisible on the map. You'd know there's a slave revolt and that your own territories would harbour hostile forces, so moving your own forces around would be a great risk. Another option might be to remove attritional damage from slave armies, or have it massively reduced? Perhaps another option could be to turn them into a competing faction if not dealt with in a certain time frame, and then perhaps trigger a small scale civil war or something as more people start rallying to their cause? The system CA developed for slaves lacks immersion like so many things with Rome 2 that could have been so much more thought out and exciting. It's like they put the mechanic there but didn't build the vehicle.

**Butan** · January 12, 2015, 05:46 PM

Its going to get fixed in the future.

**largejack** · January 12, 2015, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Butan

Its going to get fixed in the future.

But why? I refer to my last post. In my opinion they should be low level units, the very lowest available, but with massive attributes. Are there any other perks you could give slave armies to make them strong but in a primitive way?

At the moment they're more of a repetitive nuisance than an actual threat. All they really do is reduce your garrison and because they never take over a town or city they eventually die out anyway.

**Ivan_Moscavich** · January 12, 2015, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Butan

Its going to get fixed in the future.

I agree with large Jack.

It doesn't need to be 'fixed'. Nothing is wrong with a silver chevron militia type unit.

**blub19** · January 13, 2015, 06:27 AM

@mikea4 you did get that dresden tried to give them less experience but couldn't?
at least now you can beat an revolt reasonably in early campaign.

**Butan** · January 13, 2015, 09:19 AM

I meant its going to be fixed but not in one way or another (I'm not in the developer's mind

), since I posted into a thread that already evolved into more than one argument and I dont know what will be the changes, simply take this as a warning.