Attila campaign- Barbarian factions should not be large hordes of fighters like in BI

[HuangCaesar]

In BI unsettled barbarians are massive hordes of unstopable fighters capable of breaking into the empire and steamrolling rather small Roman armies. This should not be the case in BI. Typical Roman field armies were 40,000-60,000. If 1 full stack of Romans represent that number, the multiple full stack armies of a horde would be in the hundreds of thousands in a historical ratio. I don't think barbarian armies were had the logistics to even field that many troops. There was no proper beyond the Rhine and Danube. And a 200,000 man force bunched up in one area is just too much for foraging.

Yes they could be civilians that accompanied the wagon train. But they shouldn't be a horde of full stack of fighters. A Gothic horde should just be a full stack of fighters and thats it. German women did cheer the men on in combat, but would not actually fight. And for children, and sickly people, and the elderly, added up, the population would outnumber the warrior size. And there were also stragllers who just travelled by themselves. For example, Fritgern and Alaric's horde didn't stick together many were spread out and living with the Romans.

The massive "hundreds of thousand warriors" like 100,000, 200,000, even 500,000(like at Chalons) were all Roman exaggerations.

For example at Adrianople were Valens reported some 200,000 warriors, and 1 million Goth civillians. When the scouts did some spying it was actually just 10,000 fighters, and maybye some 5,000 cavalry the scouts failed to report. The Huns themselves could have no more than 30,000 horsemen. While the Romans had a half a million army capable of mustering near 50,000- 100,000 in a field army.

So IMO horde armies from the start of the campaign, should be more expensive(by limmiting the economic capablities of the horde faction).Since a stack army of Romans represt a typical Roman army size, then a horde army should be only half stack with 1 field army on the campaign map until they settle for more territory to increase there economic capacity to recruit more. This should be more realistic.

The Goths were no massive powerful army. They were a bunch of starving desprerate people. The edge of extinction should be a cool tension in this game.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The average Roman field army was about 30,000 men. The most most Barbarians could field varied - the Goths about 25,000 at their height before entering Spain, the Alemanni and Franks combined could muster about 35,000, the Huns at the height of their Empire could muster about 80,000 men from their vassals and their own core forces. Etc. Etc.

Obviously the issue of Game-Breaking hordes like BI, was a serious one.

[wulfgar610]

The average Roman field army was about 30,000 men.

Of the larger strategic formations..............20,000 on a good day!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Hunnic 80,000 force was more of a coalition of Huns, Gepids, Ostrogoths etc. The core Hunnic force led by Attila was no more than 10,0000-30,000.

I did say Vassals.

Of the larger strategic formations..............20,000 on a good day!

Umm... no. the Gallic Army numbered almost 60,000 men for example.

Your estimates of field army strength have no historical basis, while experts in the field generally agree the Notitia shows an army between 400,000 and 600,000 men strong total, which was likely larger in the Early 4th century before many units were destroyed by the Persian Campaign of Julian, Battle of Mursa, etc.

[wulfgar610]

Umm... no. the Gallic Army numbered almost 60,000 men for example.

I hope you don't mean combantents?

Your estimates of field army strength have no historical basis,

My estimate is the typical cohort only had 4 centuries by this period. So an ordinary cohort about 320 combatants at full strength. A legio double cohort plus additional HQ personal, about 750. The only mystery is the cavalry.

while experts in the field generally agree the Notitia shows an army between 400,000 and 600,000 men strong total

If they mean combatants, then the particular experts concerned have performed an exceptionally poor analysis.

[Yayattasa]

If they mean combatants, then the particular experts concerned have performed an exceptionally poor analysis.

600k total is totally within the margin of possibility for an empire with a population numbering roughly 50 million.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

My estimate is the typical cohort only had 4 centuries by this period. So an ordinary cohort about 320 combatants at full strength. A legio double cohort plus additional HQ personal, about 750. The only mystery is the cavalry.

And where is the historical basis for that? Right, there isn't one.

Going by costs at say at least 35 solidi pa per infantryman, an army of 400k would cost the entire state budget and 600k would exceed the entire budget by 50%. The Imperial revenue only covers something 200k to 300k combatants. Peter Heather is part of the new generation that don't do maths.

Again, you fail to provide sourcing.

[HuangCaesar]

Hunnic 80,000 force was more of a coalition of Huns, Gepids, Ostrogoths etc. The core Hunnic force led by Attila was no more than 10,0000-30,000.

[HuangCaesar]

Was the Alans and Goths in the Gallic field army actually standing units?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Goths? No.

The Alans? Prior to 442 certainly yes. After 442, probably some were still standing Roman regiments, but most became Foederati after that point it may seem. It's really hard to say due to the lack of sources.

[juanplay]

Im with Yayatassa Peter Heather supports the figure of 400.000-600.000 men for the Late Roman Army in his book The fall of the Roman Empire: A new history.

[wulfgar610]

Im with Yayatassa Peter Heather supports the figure of 400.000-600.000 men for the Late Roman Army in his book The fall of the Roman Empire: A new history.

Going by costs at say at least 35 solidi pa per infantryman, an army of 400k would cost the entire state budget and 600k would exceed the entire budget by 50%. The Imperial revenue only covers something 200k to 300k combatants. Peter Heather is part of the new generation that don't do maths.