Thureos, pikes and interesting historical information

[GatoVolador]

Looking at my heavily armed thorax pikemen, I noticed that they carry a thureos shield, which is rather big. I wondered if this could be actually historically acurate, since as far as I know, the pike has to be carried with two hands, and phillip´s and alexander´s phalangites carried a smaller shield than the hoplites stripped to the shield arm.

Since my knowledge of hellenistic warfare post-alexander is rather limited, I decided to get some information. I stumbled upon this site, and got all excited reading it. I´m not finished yet, but I thought maybe some of you would be interested in this as well, so here it is:
part 1: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates1.html
part 2: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sar...hikrates2.html

So, ATM I still don´t know if a thureos shield and a pike were used, but I mean to find out

Cheers!

[KAM 2150]

Well, that might explain why those pikemen are that tough xD Indeed if they have thureos, they will be much, much OP unit, since they will have more armour and defence then any other pike unit in the game and they are not even elite!

[GatoVolador]

Well, that might explain why those pikemen are that tough xD Indeed if they have thureos, they will be much, much OP unit, since they will have more armour and defence then any other pike unit in the game and they are not even elite!

Oh! It isn´t intentioned? Then look at the Pontic thorax pikemen. The shield is really big and oval, so I think it is a thureos. From the top of my head I think they have a bit more defense than leukaspidai, but less attack and no encourage.

[Maetharin]

Hmm this was a most interesting read, thanks for providing it, the author makes some nice points, which could be very likely...

Maybe some of his points could be incorporated in future updates or submods!

I like the thought of a thorakitai being equipped with a spear rather than a sword, and maybe change the thorax legionaries to more afffordable standard force not unlike the roman fashion...
One could even think the argyaspides swordmen during the parade of daphne as a replacement of the argyaspides pikemen, as the primary backbone of Antiochos IV. army
I never liked the limitations of these, they were numbered 10000 strong in some sources, and most of the times, worked as the core of an army many tens of thousands strong...

I also like the idea of a multi role elite phalangite, maybe javelins could be added to them and a shoot at will button...
And a less tight formation when out of phalanx...

[Caius Martius Coriolanus]

The problem with the thureos is that it's too large to be wielded when in a pike formation. Not only would it have to be modified so that it could be strapped to the arm, the ends would be bumping into the guy next to you. The thureos, with its oval shape, represented a kind of individualistic fighting style that the Greeks usually did not employ in their regular infantry. They made sense for flexible infantry like the thureophoroi and later thorakitai, who could function as heavy armored skirmishers who could put up a fight if caught on their toes, but not for heavy line infantry like the phalangites.

In everything that I have read there is no evidence that phalangites were armed with the thureos shield. A long oval body shield like the thureos (or the Roman scutum) is great for infantry who favor an individualistic dueling style for combat. They could be used to make a shield wall since they are flat, but they wouldn't work in such a tightly packed formation like the Hellenistic phalanx. Not enough room to maneuver.

[GatoVolador]

In everything that I have read there is no evidence that phalangites were armed with the thureos shield.

Neither did I. So maybe the models should be changed...

[Mark of Calth]

Possibly worth giving Peltastai spears instead of swords, and an option for a tighter formation then? That would seem to me to be the easiest way to simulate that variety of use.

[KAM 2150]

Yeah, it is a bug, but easy to fix It is impossible to wield pike with thureos shield and even if possible, then not without seeeerious consequances to soldiers performance.

Also I would not give Peltasts spears. Peltasts with spears were in Vc. and in IVc. BC, in IIIc. BC their role was different as from that point they performer as medium infantry. They actually often were standing armies of the greek and hellenic kingdoms, so they were more professional they some levied troops.

Also common problem is with translations, in some at Battle of Magnesia, Pergamon aided rome with 3000 peltasts, while in other translations it was with 3000 hoplites. That is also the problem with Hypaspists, since they were also called...Peltasts.