military and economic cities

[Riothamus]

I'm not sure how much this has been discussed or if and when it has been implemented but it appears after I did some tinkering with the hidden_resource, after the building level, certain provinces or cities can be forced into building only economic buildings or military ones. This is something I certainly wish to implement. Does anyone have any ideas around this? I am along the line of thinking of dividing up the cities into basically 3 different divisions
1 military
2 economic
3 mixture

[Csatádi]

This is a very bad idea IMO. It has not got any historical reason.
In RTW you can do it only by choosing the appropriate buildings if you wish.

[Turkeys!]

I agree with Csatadi it takes more stuff away from the game then it gives.

[Riothamus]

I think there is a historical basis for this. If you have iron as a resource in your province then that province should have an edge on other provinces when it comes to building a higher level blacksmith or a higher level barracks. Also certain provinces have the grain resource so why shouldn't this province have a better farming capability then a province that doesn't have it? I think this is good historical sense. Also it doesn't mean a city with out iron as a resource cant have military buildings. My point is that economic cities should not have the same capabilities to build the same buildings that a military cities have. and vice versa.

[cherryfunk]

One way to create the effect that Rio is after without forcing the player down a certain path is by increasing build costs and times, like RTR does. This way, you can't build all buildings in all cities -- you just don't have the money to do so. So the player has to think carefully about what a particular city is going to be used for. A relatively safe city, you might neglect military buildings all together and focus on economic development, while a city near a major enemy faction you might decide to make a military center. One big problem with vanilla RTW is that the building costs are so low and build times so short that you end up building almost all building types in every city -- and they all end up the same.

I think the negative reaction to the concept, Rio, is more on taking options away from the player (saying, for example, that a given region can ONLY be an economic one). If you give the player the choice -- BUT, you make that choice actually make a difference by increasing build times and costs -- that would create the regional differences you want without irritating the player.

Try the Metro&Naval mod for RTR Platinum (or the Ancient Empires mod) and you'll see how this can work. You have to carefully consider your build strategies in those mods because you just don't have time or money to build everything in every city.

[cherryfunk]

Also certain provinces have the grain resource so why shouldn't this province have a better farming capability then a province that doesn't have it?

This makes sense.

Maybe you could do something like this:

For every resource, there are one or two buildings that can ONLY be built if that resource is present in a region. A high level foundry requires the Iron resource, high level farming requires the Grain resource, high level stables requires the Horses resource, etc. This wouldn't be limiting the player too much, but it would make those resources more important and would help differentiate the regions, especially at the higher levels of development.

[Riothamus]

This makes sense.

Maybe you could do something like this:

For every resource, there are one or two buildings that can ONLY be built if that resource is present in a region. A high level foundry requires the Iron resource, high level farming requires the Grain resource, high level stables requires the Horses resource, etc. This wouldn't be limiting the player too much, but it would make those resources more important and would help differentiate the regions, especially at the higher levels of development.

Yes ...this is along the lines of my thinking. I'm not for stripping a Province's city of it entire economic or its military buildings based upon its resources available but it makes historical sense to me that an iron resource in a city would enable that city to have more advantages military buildings then a city without it and a city with a grain resource should have better farms then a city without it.

The grain +5 farms idea is Ramons I should mention, but its exactly what I'm driving at.

The potential for modifying along this premises is vast and I think this creates more decisions to made and more strategy needed to be successful.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

thinking about this again and poring through RTRs EDB,
I though about this:
road needed to upgrade farm
farm or port or riverport or mines needed to upgrade market
market needed to upgrade smith
smith needed to upgrade barracks
barracks + temple + sewers needed to advance city level

this is a very simplistic way of putting it but I think u get the idea.

[Riothamus]

thinking about this again and poring through RTRs EDB,
I though about this:
road needed to upgrade farm
farm or port or riverport or mines needed to upgrade market
market needed to upgrade smith
smith needed to upgrade barracks
barracks + temple + sewers needed to advance city level

this is a very simplistic way of putting it but I think u get the idea.

I like the tech tree idea. It really should be simplistic as you have stated it.

I just wanted to point out that not all cites(provinces) within a faction historically had the same potential or ability to build estates farms. The faction may have the technology to do so but this off depends on the factions provinces resources.(having grain...ect.)The same applies for iron. It strikes me funny that a province without the iron resource can build a foundry, creating the best weapons forged.

The tech tree would be therefore be affected depending upon the provinces available resources.....again this can be simplistic by just using the iron and grain resource to dictate if it is a military or economic city, or a combination of the two. This would not allowing a province without the iron resource to build all 5 level barrack tiers and foundries. and the same would apply for a city without grain to build higher level farms. pop increases, aqueduct ect... Having both resources produces a province that can be advanced to the factions fullest military and economic potentials.

Farms and iron becomes the most significant resources. They actually were at this time in history. Farms feed its population and solders and iron produced an advanced military to expand and defend. Just like in the real world of the Roman empire, It was strategic to capture certain cities for their resources.

Its boring an unhistorical for me to think that every city has(mostly) the same building capacities as every other city.

[Elrond]

I think the plans mentioned above are a good idea, however i believe that the base units for a faction should be able to be recruited in all provinces, e.g. the WRE should be able to recruit limenati, comsenties etc in all provinces and other units should be regional,

EB is very difficult to play as a factions core units (roman - hastai, principes and treari) cannot be built in alot of provinces no matter wat government system is built and no matter how long u have owned the province, another reason for the system that u r suggesting instead of a government system is that the AI cant understand a government system while it can understand what u r suggesting,

the military / economy idea isnt a good idea because it limits gameplay and expansion and it is unhistoric to have a system like m2tw's system (its still a great game though)

[Riothamus]

I think the plans mentioned above are a good idea, however i believe that the base units for a faction should be able to be recruited in all provinces, e.g. the WRE should be able to recruit limenati, comsenties etc in all provinces and other units should be regional,

)

base units yes and limited advanced units yes...limited blacksmith levels yes.. if in an econ city

the military / economy idea isnt a good idea because it limits gameplay and expansion and it is unhistoric to have a system like m2tw's system (its still a great game though)

how do you know this??...have you tested it?? It becomes too restrictive if an economic city has all its military buildings removed and vise versa. I'm not advocating that. I'm trying to make just a limited physical difference between the two to differentiate the two as it was in history based upon its resources available

Its historical to have a system of the iron resource producing advantages within a military province or city.. Its not "historical enough" to have the system we have in place now. To me this is common sense.

This is something I'll continue in the Rio forum. I feel strongly implementing this. I've tested it without seeing expansion problems. It needs further tweaking like the base farm increases in the desc regions for the grain resource but if it comes down to likes and dislikes, well then that is fine. I have no issue with that.

[Lopus]

What about provinces that import iron? Can they also upgrade? So perhaps the certain higher tech buildings can only be built if certain resources are available (naturally or via trade) and then do the same thing for units.

[Elrond]

when i say that a military and economy system if done ecessivly could limit gameplay i am basing my opinion from EB which took the idea to far, if it is relitivly limited then it is a good idea

[Riothamus]

What about provinces that import iron? Can they also upgrade? So perhaps the certain higher tech buildings can only be built if certain resources are available (naturally or via trade) and then do the same thing for units.

To keep it simple, the province that is able to export the iron resource I would think should have an edge on building its military machine. The province importing it could still at least build its military buildings now with the imported iron at base level.

when i say that a military and economy system if done ecessivly could limit gameplay i am basing my opinion from EB which took the idea to far, if it is relitivly limited then it is a good idea

okay...I see what your saying. Yes. I agree. Its like then trying to fight with sticks and stones

I'm finding this to be more applicable to Ice Torques warmap(Rios 463AD mod) because of the number of provinces(200) and the way he set up the economics. I'm not saying that Ramon should use this same method by no means, but maybe there is something to pick out of it that fits into the IBFD 6.5 Mod.

There are no economic icons present on the warmap. the provinces trade by land and see but you cant see what they are trading. I found a way to add ...for instance the iron icon and place in a province that originally had it there. Its placed there in a way where it doesn't affect the economics as it was so it becomes just a symbol signifying that the province has iron and therefore it has capabilities of a military city. The same thing applies when re-adding the gain icon to where it originally was. It represents its an economic city but I added to this an increase to the base level farms in the descr_regions file. If both the iron and grain icon are present in a province then the city has military and economic capabilities. No icon at all present, then its plainly has only economic capabilities and no increase in base level farms.

Base level buildings could be 2 tier buildings: not sure on this yet

iron icon: advanced military capabilities base level economic buildings.

grain icon: advanced economic capabilities base level military buildings increase in base level farms income

iron and grain icon: advanced military and economic buildings increase in base level farm income

no icon: advanced economic buildings base level military buildings no increase in base level farms.

This just a skeleton plan that needs tweaking. I could add other economic icons to there original provinces to create further results.

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

here is a simple economic map (date not exact but near enough)

[Ramon Gonzales y Garcia]

I am trying to implement a bold and more complex economic/military building system.
however, I am not sure if I can include it as so far adding the new buildings causes -not CTD, but a weird glitch wherein other cultures can build unique buildings (rostra and not just in Rome, something supposedly only Romans can build) so if I cannot fix that will have to scrap plan, but anyway:

to improve barracks needs smith OR weapons trading (new building)
to build smith needs iron resource OR iron trading (new building)

to improve stables needs horses resource OR horses trading (new building)

to build boats needs timber resource OR timber trading (new building)

to improve farms needs roads AND (for higher level farms) resource grain = easily done

to improve markets needs:
lvl2-lvl trading building
lvl3-lvl2 trading building (lvl2 trading building would require 2 lvl1 trading so needs to be trading 2 resources)
lvl4-lvl2 trading building AND higher lvl farm
lvl5-lvl3 trading building (lvl3 trading building would require trading all tradeable resources) AND higher lvl farm

to improve city needs:
market AND temple/church AND barracks

all in all planned trading buildings are:
iron trading
horses trading dogs are now horses resource
weapons trading (also adds weapon bonuses)(?) might just make it iron trading
timber trading
luxury goods trading
foods trading (?) change pigs to sheep, hides to cattle?
religious items trading (incense,marble) necessary for religious bldgs (?)

cities w/trading buildings will get +bonuses if the resource is available in the city and - bonuses if the resource is not available, alternatively will just allow trading when resource is NOT available.

I really wish I can accomplish this, but so far isn't going too well

[Riothamus]

I am trying to implement a bold and more complex economic/military building system.
however, I am not sure if I can include it as so far adding the new buildings causes -not CTD, but a weird glitch wherein other cultures can build unique buildings (rostra and not just in Rome, something supposedly only Romans can build) so if I cannot fix that will have to scrap plan, but anyway:



I really wish I can accomplish this, but so far isn't going too well

Ramon this is brilliant!!! I wonder how much of this or what part of the new system would cause the glitch. :hmmm: At least some of this can be salvaged?

Edit:
I think I might try to make a building that would steer a player to in an economic direction and another building that would lead to a military oriented city. Maybe a third that would combine the two. I'm hoping to make it a choice for the player.

Another option which appears to work is to create a building sort of a 3rd tier provincial building sort of like a governors building but with the capacity to recruit limited elite units to protect the economic city.

[Riothamus]

Another reason why I don't think the Roman army should have the same recruiting availability in every city is that the role of the army had changed drastically during the 4th and 5th century. The limitanei were the boarder troops and the comitatenses and palatina had to be sent up to their borders if invasions occurred and by the 5th century, mercenaries and federate compromised the the main army. The whole barrack system and equestrian system in cities is a system that was used only up up until the 4th century.

I devised in my upcoming Rio III two kinds of cities, Military and economic. I'm not sure or even satisfied if this is the best way to create two different systems for Roman army recruiting, but with the economic city, the army is largely a foederati, auxiliary and mercenary system. The city can be protected with this sort of recruitment but the elite heavier comitatenses and palatina and heavy Roman cavalry would have o be sent in to help from an other location(military cities) This can even be changed to that to where in historical terms the heavy infantry and mobile cavalry were actually recruited from.

I noticed the genius of IBFD 6.5 using the hidden resourse for foederati and auxiliary.
I just think the way the city is set up for the 5th century roman military a bit ahistorical and needs some fresh new ideas

[cherryfunk]

I am trying to implement a bold and more complex economic/military building system.

I like this system, Ramon, it's intricate but not too complex, and it's easy to understand.

weapons trading (also adds weapon bonuses)(?) might just make it iron trading

I also like 'weapons trading' -- one of the reasons the Germans became such a force was all the Roman weapons they imported. It makes sense to separate 'iron' and 'weapons.'