Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Novgorod historical titles

  1. #1
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Novgorod historical titles

    I'm looking for infos or sources about the titles used during the 12th century in Novgorod Republic for SSHIP (see signature for more details about the submod). I hope there are still people coming on this forum able to help me.

    To summarize, we have 2 Russian factions in our submod: the Novgorod Republic and the Principality of Kiev.
    Regarding Kiev, it would appear like as follow in game:
    - faction's name: Kievskoe Knyazhestvo
    - Faction Leader title: Velikiy Knyaz (Grand Prince)
    - Faction Heir title: Knyaz' Starsij (Elder Prince)
    - Noble's title (for settlements): Knyaz (Prince)

    For Novgorod, it's a bit more complicated. So far, we have:
    Option 1:
    - faction's name: Novgorodskaya Respublica
    - Faction Leader title: Gospodin Novgoroda
    - Noble's titles (for settlements): Knyaz

    Option 2:
    - faction's name: Novgorodskaya Respublica
    - Faction Leader title: Knyaz Novgoroda
    - Noble's titles (for settlements): Podsanik

    I'd be grateful if somebody can confirm which option for Novgorod is the closest to the History. Many thanks in advance.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  2. #2

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    The republic part of the usual "Novogord Republic" label is something of a backdating/anachronism. They generally didn't call Novgorod a Republic at the time (and many of them probably wouldn't have known what "republic" would mean in the first place). You can even see that because the word itself is lifted straight from Italian; it's a romance word rather than a Slavic one.

    The Novgorodians generally saw the city itself as being the "legal" ruler (in the same sense that the office of the President of the United States is not Obama or any person occupying it today), and addressed it like their ruler. "His Majesty Lord Novgorod the Great", "Hist Majesty the Sovereign Novgorod the Great" and the like.

    The actual human ruler- the Prince of Novgorod whose title you have more or less hit right on- was supposedly more of a custodian or regent ruling in the city/community's name. And who could be (and occasionally was) dismissed for another.

    So in terms of historical faction name would probably be something like... Gospodin Velikij Novgorod (Lord Novgorod the Great) ?
    Gospodin Novgorod (Lord Novgorod)?

    Velikij Novgorod (Novgorod the Great)?

    Something like that. But basically: The city was the sovereign lord, "caretaken" by Princes/Kynazes who ruled, but supposedly did so on its' behalf and were not the city itself.

    As for Podsanik, the title is too narrow. Podsanik means "Mayor" and there was only supposed to be one Mayor of Novgorod and one mayor for each of the boroughs/quarters of the city. Obviously outlying territories and posessions of Novgorod could have their own Podsaniks in theory, but there was only one per city area and one per the city as a whole. And in Novgorod they were usually elected by the oligarchs, merchants, boyars, and the like.

    While there were a lot of Podsaniks after a while, I'm not sure having them be the noble title would work. Especially since a lot of them were meant to be governing the sectors of the city rather than out and about campaigning outside it.

    So if anything, I would have the normal noble title be "Boyar", while "Podsanik" would be the title of the Faction Heir or something.

    As for Kynaz Novgoroda, that sounds about right thoguh I've also seen renditions of it as "Kynaz Novgorodskii". As I am not a Russian speaker I am not competent to judge which is best.

    So it wouild be more like an Option 3.

    - Faction's Name: Gospodin Velikij Novgorod/Gospodin Novgorod/Velikij Novgorod
    - Faction's Leader Title: Kynaz Novogorda/Kynaz Novogordskii
    - Faction's Heir Title: Podsanik
    - Noble's titles: Boyar

    Hope that helps. If somebody can improve off of my non-expert opinion, it'd be great!
    Last edited by Turtler; January 11, 2015 at 06:48 AM.

  3. #3
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Many thanks for your answer Turtler.

    Some more info I could find:
    - the word "Gospodin" seems to be more a official way to speak or write to the leader like "Sire" or "My Lord" in English. It appears to not be an official rank like Duke or Count.
    - there won't be a faction heir or family tree for Novgorod as the Prince or "Knyaz" was elected or dismissed by the Veche (public assembly).
    - "Boyard" seems to be more a social rank rather than a noble title. The Boyards were the aristocracy of the city.
    - Many cities had a Knyaz as a ruler between the 12th and 15th century. So, the title is quite confusing somehow(at least for me).

    I like your idea of Novgorod the Great as faction's name. I guess it would be "Velikij Novgorod" in that case.
    For faction leader, I think that "Knyaz" is the best option. Same for Nobles in charge of the other cities.

    If anybody else can confirm or give more info, please, do.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  4. #4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Many thanks for your answer Turtler.

    Some more info I could find:
    - the word "Gospodin" seems to be more a official way to speak or write to the leader like "Sire" or "My Lord" in English. It appears to not be an official rank like Duke or Count.
    That is correct. However, it is by far one of the most common forms of address/title given to the city of Novgorod, which is why it struck me as possibly fitting. And a way to avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - there won't be a faction heir or family tree for Novgorod as the Prince or "Knyaz" was elected or dismissed by the Veche (public assembly).
    This is correct, but three points make me bring it up.

    A: Political dynasties were very important in Novgorod, and tended to remain so even if a member were dismissed from the post of Knyaz.

    B: One of the great underlying conflicts that plagued Novgorod was that between the Knyaz trying to centralize power for his position and family, and the Veche and other competing oligarchs trying to preserve their privileges. We can see that with the "Sainted" Alexander Nevsky threatening his own city and government with Mongol "Tax Collectors" in order to keep power, arguably up to the Muscovite v. Lithuanian struggle that brought an end to the Veche and Novgorodian independence itself. I think that would be a very important game mechanic to keep in mind.

    and

    C: Limitation of the Medieval II system making family trees so important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - "Boyard" seems to be more a social rank rather than a noble title. The Boyards were the aristocracy of the city.
    Correct, and it was from that aristocracy that most of the leadership of Novgorod emerged from. Rather than-say- Mayors that came, went, and were generally ward officials that didn't go campaigning across Russia.

    I feel that actual roles, titles, and properties would be more likely to be traits and ancillaries, for instance "Tysyatsky" or even "Posadnik (of X)", while Boyar/Boyard would be the permanent designation of that class of characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - Many cities had a Knyaz as a ruler between the 12th and 15th century. So, the title is quite confusing somehow(at least for me).
    Agreed, and this I think is hard to avoid; it is just the Russian styling for "Prince" after all. I'd almost suggest finding some sort of slightly different tile; like elevating the Kievan one with a discriptor while just leaving the Novgorodian one as simply (an expendable) "Knyaz."

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    I like your idea of Novgorod the Great as faction's name. I guess it would be "Velikij Novgorod" in that case. .
    I'm glad it works out for you, and in the interests of historical accuracy I figured it would be better than slapping some Italian term into a very alien environment. Of course, I do think there should be some heavy penalties and modifiers that would come from losing control of The Great Sovereign!


    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    For faction leader, I think that "Knyaz" is the best option. Same for Nobles in charge of the other cities.
    Agreed.

    Beyond that, I'm not sure what I can do to help given that I am not exactly a specialist, but do you have any idea obout mechanics to represent Novgorod's....."unique" political system?

  5. #5
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    As far as I could find, the ruler of Novgorod used to introduce himself as "Gospodin Velikiy Novgorod" which can be translated by "Lord of Novgorod the Great".
    I agree with you regarding the relations between the Knyaz and the Veche. However, I'm not sure how to represent that in game.
    Battle for the Baltic submod made a quite interesting feature for that but I'm convinced that it can be improved to reflect the specificity of Novgorod.

    My biggest problem for now is to find sources in English. That's why I'm also looking through all the mods or submods focused on this part of the world.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  6. #6

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Hi Lifthrasir,
    Is help still wanted?
    My input would be:

    1) You shouldn't call the crown prince "Knyaz' Starsij". First of all, there are several styles to transscribe the cyrillic alfabet into the latin one, but you should stick to one -> y instead of j & no apostrophe '.
    Same goes for the order of the words. If your leader is called "Velikiy Knyaz", it should be "Starshiy Knyaz", alternatively you can write "Knyaz Velikiy" & "Knyaz Starshiy" (the somewhat complex Russian grammar gives you quite great freedom with regards to the order of the words, as the grammar makes still clear what role the word has, though usually you'd stick to the first version, Knyaz being the last word).

    But instead of "elder prince" I'd call him "inheriting prince". First of all, there were many knyaz's in the ancient Rus, and they didn't all have to be closely related (although they mostly were & almost all descended from Rurik). And "наследить" means more than inheriting, it is more related to the role than in the material sense (where it'd be called наследовать). It translates into something like "following into someones footprints", or "taking someones place". It is the most adequate translation for "crownprince".

    So my suggestion would be:
    Faction Heir title: Nasledniy Knyaz (Crownprince).

    2) Even though Novgorod did have a very strong oligarchy (which strength varied through the course of history), for most of its time it did have a prince to govern them.
    Therefore, you should call him Knyaz.

    ... Which puts you into a dilemma: Either you call him Velikiy Knyaz, because the player playing could in theory take over Kiev, or something else.
    My suggestion would be: "Vladetelniy Knyaz" (meaning ruling prince), or "Knyaz Novgoroda" (meaning Prince of Novgorod).
    The crown prince should keep the same title as the one for Kiev has.

    3) You should absolutely NOT call it "respublica"!
    It is in its entirety an italian word with no connection with Novgorod whatsoever. It makes sense to call it that way today, as it serves to compare it to the republics in other countries and times.
    But in the game, you should call it "Novgorodskaya Semlya" (meaning "Land of Novgorod"), as did the people back then!

    So:
    - faction's name: Novgorodskaya Semlya
    - Faction Leader title: Knyaz Novgoroda or Vladetelniy Knyaz or Velikiy Knyaz (as the player may become that once he conquers Kiev)
    - Noble's titles (for settlements): Knyaz (as the few characters the player has can be expected to be all in the higher nobility)



    You should keep in mind that all the feuds and fights and intrigues that troubled every country on earth are not, and cannot be represented in MIITW.
    Therefore, you shouldn't try to hard to implement it (unless you do so with some scripts, which would be totally awesome!), because no political figures can be shown in the game.
    Novgorod still had princes, who led them to battle. They were just less powerful than those in other cities, as the citizens were much richer than elsewhere, and therefore more capable of challenging the sovereign. In principle, it could have happened in any town and anywhere.
    Last edited by Cookiegod; March 30, 2015 at 07:10 AM.

  7. #7
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Many thanks for your inputs Cookiegod. Really appreciated
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  8. #8

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    So:
    - faction's name: Novgorodskaya Semlya
    Variant - Zemlya
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    - Faction Leader title: Knyaz Novgoroda
    князь новгородьскыи - Knyaz' Novgorod'skyi
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    - Noble's titles (for settlements): Knyaz (as the few characters the player has can be expected to be all in the higher nobility)
    Also посадникъ - posadnik.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - faction's name: Kievskoe Knyazhestvo
    кыевьская земля - Kyev'skaya Zemlya
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - Faction Leader title: Velikiy Knyaz (Grand Prince)
    великыи князь кыевьскыи - Velikyi Knyaz' Kyev'skyi
    Last edited by Alejandro Sanchez; May 17, 2015 at 06:12 AM.

  9. #9
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Many thanks Alejandro Sanchez. I've just noticed your post.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  10. #10

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - Many cities had a Knyaz as a ruler between the 12th and 15th century. So, the title is quite confusing somehow(at least for me).
    Quote Originally Posted by Turtler View Post
    Agreed, and this I think is hard to avoid; it is just the Russian styling for "Prince" after all. I'd almost suggest finding some sort of slightly different tile; like elevating the Kievan one with a discriptor while just leaving the Novgorodian one as simply (an expendable) "Knyaz."
    The title Knyaz' could had only a member of Ryurikovichi dynasty. For example, I'm Velikyi Knyaz' Volodimer'skyi (i.e. Great Knyaz' of Volodimer') and I want to give to my son or brother town Suzhdal' for governance. It was called столъ - stol. Then my family member will have stol in Suzh'dal and a title Knyaz' Suzhdal'skyi (i.e. Knyaz' of Suzhdal'). If I want to appoint any other person (not from Ryurikovichi family) then he will have a title Posadnik' Suzhdal'skyi (i.e. vicegerent of Knyaz in Suzhdal').

    + small addition (these terms based on the primal sources in Old Novgorod dialect and Novgorod First Chronicle):

    княжъ сыно - Knyazh syno (son of Knyaz')
    доци князя - Dotzi Knyazya (daughter of Knyaz' - Princess)
    тысячьскыи - tysyach'skyi (captain in game)
    Last edited by Alejandro Sanchez; August 25, 2016 at 04:31 AM.

  11. #11
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Many thanks for the infos.
    I'm not sure to get it right about the "stol". Correct me if I'm wrong but so far we have:

    - faction leader : Velikyi Knyaz' Novgorod'skyi

    - faction's heir: Knyaz. what to do with the "stol"???

    - princess: Dotzi Knyazya + name of father

    - generals/governors: Podsanik + name of settlement 'skyi, f.e. Podsanik Suzhdal'skyi

    - captains: tysyach'skyi + name (or the name comes first?)
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  12. #12

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Many thanks for the infos.
    I'm not sure to get it right about the "stol".
    Welcome! Stol is not title, but the term like throne.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - faction leader : Velikyi Knyaz' Novgorod'skyi
    Right If you use monarchical system. If republican then Posadnik Novgorod'skyi (without heir)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - faction's heir: Knyaz.
    I don't know special term for it. Each son of Knyaz' was called княжичь - Knyazhich' or сынъ князя - Syn Knyazya (or княжъ сыно - Knyazh syno in Novgorod dialect)
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - princess: Dotzi Knyazya + name of father
    I did not understand well. Every male nobleman (male) had отчество - addition to the main name, like Scandinavian.
    Oleg son of Yaroslav = Oleg Yaroslavich.
    For woman it's сomplicated I'll write some later.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - generals/governors: Podsanik + name of settlement 'skyi, f.e. Podsanik Suzhdal'skyi
    Right (Posadnik, without extra "d") Though scheme + name of settlement 'skyi will not operate properly in all cases. And similarly Knyaz' ..., if he is a member of family (because he is Knyazhich'). I think it's possible.
    Simple general - воевода - Voevoda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    - captains: tysyach'skyi + name (or the name comes first?)
    In Old Russian it does not matter, in any place.
    Last edited by Alejandro Sanchez; August 25, 2016 at 06:01 AM.

  13. #13
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Thanks again for the clarification.
    I'm not sure how to represent in game the Novgorodian Republic system actually. I have to think about it.

    Again, the difference between generals and family members titles might be difficult to represent in game. That's why my suggestion is to keep Knyaz title for the heir and give posadnik one to the other generals. Note that this might be a temporary solution until I find out how to make it better
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  14. #14

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Again, the difference between generals and family members titles might be difficult to represent in game. That's why my suggestion is to keep Knyaz title for the heir and give posadnik one to the other generals. Note that this might be a temporary solution until I find out how to make it better
    My suggestion.
    Use traits or retinue (or something like this):
    Ryurikovich' - for all members of family
    Knyaz' X'skyi - for each male member of family (who have trait Ryurikovich') who is governor of town X
    Posadnik X'skyi - for each ordinary general who is governor of town X

    Like here Emir of Merv:


    Use word Knyazhich' for Heir, and Dotzi Knyazha for Princess. Use word Voevoda for each ordinary general (if at all necessary), Tysyach'skyi for Captain.
    Last edited by Alejandro Sanchez; August 25, 2016 at 08:16 AM.

  15. #15
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    What can I say?

    That sounds very good too me. I own you one
    Thank you very much again for your inputs
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



  16. #16

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    What can I say?That sounds very good too me. I own you one Thank you very much again for your inputs
    You can feel free to write me if you have any questions about the Rus'sian lands. If I know the answer, I'll always help you

  17. #17

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Here some common for all Rus'sian lands terms and also Old Russian names and toponyms.

  18. #18

  19. #19

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Musical instruments of Medieval Novgorod


  20. #20
    Lifthrasir's Avatar A Clockwork Orange
    Content Director Patrician Citizen

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Dunkirk - France
    Posts
    11,017
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default Re: Novgorod historical titles

    Interesting video
    Shame I don't understand what the guy is explaining.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •