New player question

**regnak999** · January 07, 2015, 09:19 PM

I started a Grand Campaign as Spain and France declared war while I was fighting the Moors and on Crusade against Tunis. I have taken 2 French cities but now my relationship with the Papal States is getting low. Do I need to worry about getting excommunicated and a Crusade declared against me? Thanks.

**Dr. Conquest** · January 07, 2015, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by regnak999

I started a Grand Campaign as Spain and France declared war while I was fighting the Moors and on Crusade against Tunis. I have taken 2 French cities but now my relationship with the Papal States is getting low. Do I need to worry about getting excommunicated and a Crusade declared against me? Thanks.

You can usually expect to get a warning from the Pope before you get excommunicated. Use you remaining freedom before that happens to consolidate your position against France. You'll get the feel for it the more you play. If you really want to know what happens, ignore the Pope and get yourself kicked out simply for the experience. It can be worth it if you see an immediate strategic advantage in fighting that one battle that tips the scales.

**regnak999** · January 07, 2015, 11:24 PM

Ok thanks.

**RuthlessChubbz** · January 12, 2015, 09:34 PM

You can generally manipulate the pope into siding with you by somehow getting the French to attack you by either parading weak units around their border, or leaving your cities and castles under defended so they attack. If you're lucky France will get excommunicated instead and you'll be able to go open season on them.

What I usually do is march a couple of armies up to another faction's cities, have them start a siege and then just them there to starve out the faction after the pope sends me the initial warning. Since you're technically not attacking (more like parking your armies), it won't get you excommunicated and you can wait them out.

Or you can concentrate on attacking Portugal if you haven't already wiped the floor with them, Scotland, England or the Moors.

You can also nullify the excommunication by using one of two methods. Either keep a trained diplomat next to Rome to dispense money to be reconciled, or a couple of trained assassins to take out the pope. Once the pope dies you're automatically reconciled once a new pope is named.

I remember on one game I successfully assassinated multiple popes until my one low ranking cardnial got in my default. If you decide to go that route, training assassins can be difficult and I would recommend starting them off by killing army captains, then moving onto other agents until they're certified killing machines. In my experience there's never a large army or spies in Rome which makes it much easier.

Otherwise I don't think excommunication will affect you that much early in the game. It's only later on when you have an expanded empire that it really starts to hurt.

**Dr. Conquest** · January 13, 2015, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by RuthlessChubbz

What I usually do is march a couple of armies up to another faction's cities, have them start a siege and then just them there to starve out the faction after the pope sends me the initial warning. Since you're technically not attacking (more like parking your armies), it won't get you excommunicated and you can wait them out.

Be careful with that one. I once got excommunicated after ignoring the Papal warning and failing to lift an existing siege. Depending on how out of favour you are at the time of the warning, you may have to completely withdraw. The only exception, I find, is if you can completely eliminate the target faction during the end turn phase, preventing you getting excommunicated at the start of the next. With this in mind, I tend to go for a concise, devestating attack against other Catholic factions, rather than deal with a piecemeal, drawn-out war where the Pope keeps interfering.

**RuthlessChubbz** · January 13, 2015, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Conquest

Be careful with that one. I once got excommunicated after ignoring the Papal warning and failing to lift an existing siege. Depending on how out of favour you are at the time of the warning, you may have to completely withdraw. The only exception, I find, is if you can completely eliminate the target faction during the end turn phase, preventing you getting excommunicated at the start of the next. With this in mind, I tend to go for a concise, devestating attack against other Catholic factions, rather than deal with a piecemeal, drawn-out war where the Pope keeps interfering.

Yep I have seen that happen before. Good thing the papacy is so easy to manipulate once you get the hang of it.

**Dr. Conquest** · January 14, 2015, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by RuthlessChubbz

Yep I have seen that happen before. Good thing the papacy is so easy to manipulate once you get the hang of it.

Manipulate . . . or ignore. My aggressive early expansion normally puts me in a position of power that leaves me with nothing much to fear from surrounding nations, should I be imminently excommunicated. Another trick I use, if I have enough Papal favour, is to call a crusade shortly before I plan to take significant aggressive action against other Catholics. Then they can't crusade against me for a good while. (Toulouse, anyone?)

**regnak999** · January 12, 2015, 10:26 PM

Hmm, I may have to with the assassination route. I am now on turn 119 and just got another threat this time about Milan. The thing is they declared war on me about 5 turns back and the threat came after they sallied from their capital and I defeated them last turn.

**RuthlessChubbz** · January 12, 2015, 11:03 PM

Hehe that's my favourite route. It's always a good idea to start training them from the beginning so by the time your territory is covered with heretics, enemy agents and marauding armies, you'll be able to easily take them out which can be a massive help.

However with my current Venice game I'm under attack so much from just about all the factions around me, I haven't been able to concentrate on it and I've just got a couple of lowly trained assassins occasionly having a go at the pope when he annoys me too much.

If you're not that much of a role player what I would recommend saving the game before making the kill because it can have disastrous ramifications if you fail. The pope will go to war with you, you will be excommunicated and you'll leaving yourself open to attack from every Catholic faction which is bad when you're located anywhere in Europe.

Part of the reason I prefer playing with the Turks, Egyptians & Moors, aside from their awesome units and the different tactics required.

**mbchudno** · January 14, 2015, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by regnak999

I started a Grand Campaign as Spain and France declared war while I was fighting the Moors and on Crusade against Tunis. I have taken 2 French cities but now my relationship with the Papal States is getting low. Do I need to worry about getting excommunicated and a Crusade declared against me? Thanks.

Best and easiest way to prevent your situation is to send your diplomat/princess over to Pope first turn you start the campaign, strike an Alliance with him, give him present of tribute of 50gp/100 turns bundled with maps. Tribute will trickle into his coffers improving your relation with him constantly without you worrying about him any more for a while. Consider this as a tax on freedom. Can easily make it back in tributes from other countries since you will be more desirable as an ally. Assassination i reserve for times when i start war against Pope while playing as Sicily, Milan or Venice so i can make a grab for Rome city. It an easiest way to wipe slate clean after you take over Rome.

Good luck

I had been excommunicated number of times playing as Milan last time. if anything, let it happen and use as an excuse to make a grab for Italy. Just make sure you have alliance with HRE.

**UndrState** · January 14, 2015, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by mbchudno

...give him present of tribute of 50gp/100 turns bundled with maps.

You're better served by not giving a florin-per-turn gift, but rather engage in diplomacy each turn and gift X amount directly. Better return on your investiment. Giving in 100 Florin increments is optimal (so, you wanna give 1000 florins, give 100 X10 - it's worth the extra time IMO ).

**mbchudno** · January 14, 2015, 03:45 PM

I know but i prefer hands off approach of tribute. With tribute active, my relation with Pope constantly rises as Russia. Without, because of converting of Catholics and building orthodox churches, it quickly drops. By the time my princess normally gets to pope he nearly hates me already. But it does not take long for him to fall back in love

**RuthlessChubbz** · January 14, 2015, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by mbchudno

I know but i prefer hands off approach of tribute. With tribute active, my relation with Pope constantly rises as Russia. Without, because of converting of Catholics and building orthodox churches, it quickly drops. By the time my princess normally gets to pope he nearly hates me already. But it does not take long for him to fall back in love

I'm a bit confused though. If you're playing as either Russia or BE, I'm not sure why you'd be worried about how the pope thinks of you since they're both orthodox religions and not subject to the threat of Crusades.

The only instance I can think of is if the pope has decided to go crazy as he sometimes does, and has conquered Italy and you would need to maintain a good relationship as you would any other faction.

Speaking of which the pope in my Venetian game has decided to teach me a lesson and has laid seige to Tunis in North Africa with a rather large stack after I was excommunicated for attacking Poland. I've got a small garrison force of spearmen, archers and calvary and I might be able to repel the attack, but still I'm annoyed.

Luckily the pope (who is Venetian by the way) is 60 and thus due to die very shortly. At the moment I'm trying to urgently create a stack in Palermo so I can quickly take Rome and then sue for peace by handing it back to them if they won't accept cash.

I love the randomness of this game.

**mbchudno** · January 14, 2015, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by RuthlessChubbz

I'm a bit confused though. If you're playing as either Russia or BE, I'm not sure why you'd be worried about how the pope thinks of you since they're both orthodox religions and not subject to the threat of Crusades.

The only instance I can think of is if the pope has decided to go crazy as he sometimes does, and has conquered Italy and you would need to maintain a good relationship as you would any other faction.

Speaking of which the pope in my Venetian game has decided to teach me a lesson and has laid seige to Tunis in North Africa with a rather large stack after I was excommunicated for attacking Poland. I've got a small garrison force of spearmen, archers and calvary and I might be able to repel the attack, but still I'm annoyed.

Luckily the pope (who is Venetian by the way) is 60 and thus due to die very shortly. At the moment I'm trying to urgently create a stack in Palermo so I can quickly take Rome and then sue for peace by handing it back to them if they won't accept cash.

I love the randomness of this game.

I dont think that will help, easier to take Rome and then assassinate him or kill him in battle. End of war and Rome is great city to keep as Italian faction.

AS Russia, its useful to care about European factions because you will not get invaded as much. Also, Pope can call a crusade on your city if he hates your guts enough. Plus, when people like you, you can abuse the hell out of buying cities from other nations. Over all, its good to be in good graces of as many European factions as possible, and i noticed that being friendly with Pope makes it MUCH easier for some reason. Of cause you cant participate in Holy Wars and such, but... To be honest, orthodox religion is one negative about Russia. Muslim factions have their Jihad, Catholics have their Pope, Orthodox is half ass implemented. If not for order bonuses or penalties due to religious unrest, i would not even care about it...