Unit Caps

**ryanc522** · January 07, 2015, 06:17 PM

Hello, I am playing a campaign using Rome and I noticed that I cannot recruit past about 10 Early Hastati units per army. I know that the caps aren't faction-wide but are instead army-specific, so I would like to know a way to remove these unit caps. I have been scouring the pack using the Pack File Manager but I cannot find where these caps are, so if anyone could help me out that'd be great. Thank you! (PS I am using the standalone version from TWC as of 1/7/2015)

**KAM 2150** · January 07, 2015, 06:22 PM

We removed army caps already. There are only few capped units, but nation wide.

**Dresden** · January 07, 2015, 06:32 PM

Do you have an older version of DeI somewhere also? Because we removed army unit caps for almost all units in 1.0.

**ryanc522** · January 07, 2015, 06:35 PM

I have figured out that the problem was I was still using the Caesar's Legion mod for DEI and I suppose that the people working on the mod have forgotten to update it

**Lord Damian** · January 07, 2015, 08:40 PM

Why did you remove unit caps?

**Butan** · January 07, 2015, 08:47 PM

Not really historically accurate for most of the elite units (not to add arbitrarily rigid and yet circumventable), and the new recruitment/upkeep prices took over the principle to have a balanced army.

**Dresden** · January 07, 2015, 09:34 PM

We preferred a more natural system rather than the artificial system. It could also be bypassed fairly easily.

It is more challenging and realistic to have the economy determine army composition.

**dfeal** · January 08, 2015, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dresden

It is more challenging and realistic to have the economy determine army composition.

That is not quite working though, is it? I remember years ago hearing some expert comparing a medieval suit of armour to the current modern cost of a Ferrari. So taking this comparison and applying to DeI; a levy spearmen should cost under 100 and a elite Oathsworn should be at least 5000 cost and 500 upkeep. Maybe then we will see more realistic army compositions rather than the full stacks of mainly elite units I see now.

If you want to use economics to determine better army composition then use it more aggressively. A simple difference of 100 money between elites and levy is just not enough and makes no difference. Especially when the AI receives so many free funds.

My 0.2p worth.

**Dresden** · January 08, 2015, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by dfeal

That is not quite working though, is it? I remember years ago hearing some expert comparing a medieval suit of armour to the current modern cost of a Ferrari. So taking this comparison and applying to DeI; a levy spearmen should cost under 100 and a elite Oathsworn should be at least 5000 cost and 500 upkeep. Maybe then we will see more realistic army compositions rather than the full stacks of mainly elite units I see now.

If you want to use economics to determine better army composition then use it more aggressively. A simple difference of 100 money between elites and levy is just not enough and makes no difference. Especially when the AI receives so many free funds.

My 0.2p worth.

I disagree that it isn't working. The higher tier elites are quite a bit more expensive and hundreds in upkeep difference is very important when spread out over multiple armies. If you are able to field armies full of elites then more power to you, that has not been the consensus from most feedback.

The AI get small bonuses that increase with difficulty. Not nearly as much as they used to.

**dfeal** · January 08, 2015, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dresden

If you are able to field armies full of elites then more power to you, that has not been the consensus from most feedback.

My apologies. You have misunderstood me. I wasn't referring to me, but the the AI. I see AI Gaul armies full of elites and only a handfull of levy spears. In armies of 80 units that I play with that is a lot of elites! Surely they should make only about 10% or less of the army, no?

**KAM 2150** · January 08, 2015, 04:46 PM

Yes it it and it worked for mods like EB too

Current costs are not finished and will be determined by unit attribues also in future, so elites will cost more compared to non elite units. For example encourage will add +100 to cost, fear all will add +200 to cost etc. We just need to balance all those attribues on hundreds of units, because now for example too many units have encourage.

**Maegfaer** · January 08, 2015, 05:58 PM

I think the Populous mod can really help a lot in balancing unit types, once it's out. Having three classes of population and corresponding population costs for army unit recruitment will solve a lot of problems. It can function as a realistic soft cap that is actually dependent on the state of your society. It will also make AOR and Auxilary units more important, since you can't keep recruiting all your armies in one of your core provinces. In addition, the bonuses from the training buildings won't be unbalancing anymore, since it's not as practical anymore to have one fully militarized province.

Concerning AOR units and building bonuses, I think it'd also help a lot if replenishment rate would be reduced. I currently rarely feel the need to merge my units after having significant losses, I just wait a bunch of turns and my army is back to full health. It'd be appropriate if you'd need to merge severely diminished units and manually recruit new units if you want your army back to full strength quickly. That would usually mean you'll recruit AOR/auxiliaries as replacements.

**dfeal** · January 08, 2015, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Maegfaer

I think the Populous mod can really help a lot in balancing unit types, once it's out.

Oh yes! I very much look forward to this mod. I firmly believe CA should have implemented something like this from the start. This unlimited manpower and units is silly.

I think it'd also help a lot if replenishment rate would be reduced.

I agree with this wholeheartedly! Just recently I inflicted over 7k casualties on a 10k army only to see it fully replenished in a few turns. And before anyone suggests I should have pursued them to finish them off; they were joined by a second army of over 60 units and a garrison of another 30-40 units too, and winter had set in (CiG) so I had to retreat.

I currently rarely feel the need to merge my units

Merge armies of individual units like in the original Rome? I would love to do this (merge to veteran units) instead of filling them with novices.

**Maegfaer** · January 08, 2015, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by KAM 2150

Remember that Populus mod with only affect player, Magnar said AI can't handle it.

I read his post, he said the AI will take population from neighbouring provinces if the one the recruiting army is in doesn't have the population required. If they are completely out of manpower they'll get big public order penalties. That is definitely sufficient for me, I'm not too concerned about the AI, I don't mind that much if it doesn't obey the same rules.

Originally Posted by dfeal

Merge armies of individual units like in the original Rome? I would love to do this (merge to veteran units) instead of filling them with novices.

Select two or more units in your army (hold CTRL when clicking) and then press CTRL + M to merge them.

**KAM 2150** · January 08, 2015, 06:17 PM

Remember that Populus mod with only affect player, Magnar said AI can't handle it.

**Krixux** · January 09, 2015, 05:11 AM

...replenishment is terrible imo.

There should be NO replenishment unless in main region that gives some min 70 % of your culture.
And then should take at least 4 turns .

Outside own culture reasoning that still new recruits will travel to respective armies replenishment should very (!) slow forcing the player to merge units, recruit mercs or march back...
imho

**Butan** · January 09, 2015, 01:40 PM

Mustering and recruitment works in the same way: the region where the army is placed calls for recruits in the area surrounding it. Even with 4TPY, I dont think its terribly unrealistic that in 3 months some recruits from the barracks are able to march a few dozen kilometers and reinforce a main army.

But I agree that replenishment could have culture restriction (and/or other kind of restrictions) and that it could be a tad slower. Would put more emphasis on mercenaries units, and even encourage to keep them for more than one suicide battle and mainly put more importance on not losing too much men in battles (even in victories). Pyrrhus would not be pleased to see such fast replenishement!