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Thread: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

  1. #141

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kjertesvein View Post
    What are you talking about?

    ​~Wille
    Last two pages, especially Volga Bulgars being depicted as "Slavic Bulgarians".



    Quote Originally Posted by jan_boruta View Post
    Not enough talk of Turkic supremacy, judging from his other posts.
    Can you please quote a single post of mine where I talk about "Turkic supremacy", or are you always sneaky and slanderous like that? Shouldn't be hard to find since I have only 32 posts. There are too many "supremacists" here, that's for sure, but I'm definitely not one of them.
    Last edited by Danishmend; January 30, 2016 at 06:56 AM.

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caucasian Iberia View Post
    Empire of Trebizond:

    (Tributary State to Kingdom of Georgia) Interesting fact: Georgian historians called Trebizond Empire : "PONTUS".
    King: Alexios I of Trebizond - age: 30 (Created Trebizond Empire in 1204 by the help of his aunt Queen Tamar)
    Prince: David Komnenos - Brother of Alexios. Komnenos dynasty. Died in 1212
    Prince: John I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios I Age: Unknown
    Prince Manuel I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios
    princess: Name unknown - daughter of Alexios I, age: Unknown

    The Empire of Trebizond was vassal to the Latin empire in 1212 both Trebizond waged war with the Latins vs Nicaea in Asia Minor But in 1214 Peace was signed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...mphaeum_(1214)

    Second:in the Siege of Sinope in 1214 it was writen that Alexios I of Trebizond had sons who became Adults
    Prince: John I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios - age probably 14-18
    Prince Manuel I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios - age probably 14-18


    David Komnenos died in 1212/3

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komnen...I_of_Trebizond
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; January 30, 2016 at 07:26 AM.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishmend View Post
    Last two pages, especially Volga Bulgars being depicted as "Slavic Bulgarians".
    That is because you are thinking exclusively purely because of the supposed Turkic sound of the very name "Bulgar".

    However, the reality is that the Volga Bulgars were drowned into the genetic pool of Ugro-Finns within a few generations and that the same happened with the Slavic Bulgars.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ian_people.png


    Reconstructions from warrior burial sites;

    Volga Bulgar;

    http://i.imgur.com/j2UVVNS.jpg

    Medieval Bulgaria;

    http://i.imgur.com/lJ9gEn5.jpg


    In fact, their very Turkic origin is not an actual accepted fact but merely a theory, a theory with many holes.

    For instance, one of the most popular names of Bulgar males in the middle ages was Asparukh, an Iranic name without any Turkic relations whatsoever.

    ...which was also, not surprisingly, the name of the first Bulgarian Emperor;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparukh_of_Bulgaria


    As you can see, just as plenty of other Slavic origin theories, it is not so simple.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    That is because you are thinking exclusively purely because of the supposed Turkic sound of the very name "Bulgar".

    However, the reality is that the Volga Bulgars were drowned into the genetic pool of Ugro-Finns within a few generations and that the same happened with the Slavic Bulgars.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ian_people.png


    Reconstructions from warrior burial sites;

    Volga Bulgar;

    http://i.imgur.com/j2UVVNS.jpg

    Medieval Bulgaria;

    http://i.imgur.com/lJ9gEn5.jpg


    In fact, their very Turkic origin is not an actual accepted fact but merely a theory, a theory with many holes.

    For instance, one of the most popular names of Bulgar males in the middle ages was Asparukh, an Iranic name without any Turkic relations whatsoever.

    ...which was also, not surprisingly, the name of the first Bulgarian Emperor;

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparukh_of_Bulgaria


    As you can see, just as plenty of other Slavic origin theories, it is not so simple.
    The Bulgarians both on the Volga and in the Balkans weren't drowned into the slavic or Volga Finnic seas.The Bulgarians in the balkans today their closest relatives as DNA research are the people of northern Greece Romania and eastern Serbia. Outside of Europe are the people in modern Afghanistan.The slavic ans scytian genes as persentige were around 12-15% each, Thracian 6% and pre agriculture hunter-gatheres also 6%.

    Now in Volga Bulgaria in the 13th century it was the same but the Ugrian DNA is somewhat 20%.After the fall of Volga Bulgaria from the Mongols the population was around 75% less from before the invasions from Asia.All put to the sword.After this the language and the DNA became with Turkic mix.

    Also the Gagauz people in the latest theory coming from them is that they are Volga Bulgarians who after foll of Volga Bulgaria migrated in the early 14th century in The Bulgarian lands in Moldova and Besarabia in the Rule of Tzar Theodore Svetoslav.They already were for 500 years Muslims when the Ottomans came into the Moldova area.

  5. #145

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS View Post
    The Empire of Trebizond was vassal to the Latin empire in 1212 both Trebizond waged war with the Latins vs Nicaea in Asia Minor But in 1214 Peace was signed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...mphaeum_(1214)

    Second:in the Siege of Sinope in 1214 it was writen that Alexios I of Trebizond had sons who became Adults
    Prince: John I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios - age probably 14-18
    Prince Manuel I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios - age probably 14-18


    David Komnenos died in 1212/3

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komnen...I_of_Trebizond
    Dont get it rude. I really dont want to insult anyone. But it is nonsense, you are wrong.
    I study caucasus and Middle yeast history, cultures, ethnology and religion.
    Alexios I was son of Rusudan (sister of Tamar) his father and grandfather died in Constantiople rebelion and Rusudan took Alexios and David to her sister and both brothers rise in Didube palace in Tbilisi.
    Tamar conquered those cities including sinope and the siege of sinope in 1212 was done by Seljuks (Town was Trebizondian already).
    Trebizond was created by Georgia to make buffer zone from Seljuks and was tributary state of Georgia until 1235 when Mongols arrived. Trebizond had few wars with Seljuks and Latins.
    Here is some sources you can read about Trebizond:
    William Miller: The last Greek empire of Byzantine era.
    Hewsen Robert H.: The province of Trebizond.
    Ivane Javakhishvili: History of Georgian Nation.

    there is lots of reliable sources and wikipedia who claim what i said to you. Where you find Trebizond as tributary of Nicaea?

  6. #146

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS View Post
    The Empire of Trebizond was vassal to the Latin empire in 1212 both Trebizond waged war with the Latins vs Nicaea in Asia Minor But in 1214 Peace was signed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty...mphaeum_(1214)

    Second:in the Siege of Sinope in 1214 it was writen that Alexios I of Trebizond had sons who became Adults
    Prince: John I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios - age probably 14-18
    Prince Manuel I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios - age probably 14-18


    David Komnenos died in 1212/3

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komnen...I_of_Trebizond
    Dont get it rude. I really dont want to insult anyone. But it is nonsense, you are wrong.
    I study caucasus and Middle yeast history, cultures, ethnology and religion.
    Alexios I was son of Rusudan (sister of Tamar) his father and grandfather died in Constantiople rebelion and Rusudan took Alexios and David to her sister and both brothers rise in Didube palace in Tbilisi.
    Tamar conquered those cities including sinope and the siege of sinope in 1212 was done by Seljuks (Town was Trebizondian already).
    Trebizond was created by Georgia to make buffer zone from Seljuks and was tributary state of Georgia until 1235 when Mongols arrived. Trebizond had few wars with Seljuks and Latins.
    Here is some sources you can read about Trebizond:
    William Miller: The last Greek empire of Byzantine era.
    Hewsen Robert H.: The province of Trebizond.
    Ivane Javakhishvili: History of Georgian Nation.

    there is lots of reliable sources and wikipedia who claim what i said to you. Where you find Trebizond as tributary of Latin Empire?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexios_I_of_Trebizond
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Trebizond

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    @Caucasian Iberia - here are my sources - so make your mind.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Komnenos

    For their assistance, David rewarded the Latin Empire with shiploads of corn and hams.Then, considering how Laskaris had encouraged Sultan Kay Khusrau I to besiege Trebizond in 1205 or 1206, David petitioned the Latin Emperor to include him as his subject in his treaties and correspondence with Laskaris, and to treat his land as Latin territory. In the words of William Miller, "It was his interest to prefer a nominal Latin suzerainty to annexation by the Nicaean emperor.
    William Miller, Trebizond: The last Greek Empire of the Byzantine Era: 1204-1461, 1926 (Chicago: Agronaut, 1969), p. 17

    Vassiliev commented that the lack of reference to David Komnenos in the Treaty of Nymphaeum (1214) was evidence that his former suzerain had no further use for him and abandoned him in order to gain a peace with Theodore.
    A. A. Vasiliev, "The Foundation of the Empire of Trebizond (1204-1222)
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/2846872

    More recently the truth of his fate was rediscovered: a marginal note written at Mount Athos records David Komnenos died as a monk of Vatopedi monastery on 13 December 1212.

    So from 1205/6 to 1212/3 Trebizond was vassal(client state) of the Latins not to Georgia.But this doesnt make Trebizond not to have trade and non aggression pact to simulate this with Georgia.

    Georgia already got 3 vassals and in save position and no major enemies to the west and north,but the Latin Empire is fighting on 3 Fronts - Bulgaria,Epirus and Nicaea in 1212ad.1 Ally/vassal/client state will help the Latins and Trebizond to negate the rush of the 5 regioned Sultanate of Rum and the wars vs Bulgaria,Epirus and Nicaea.
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; January 30, 2016 at 04:00 PM.

  8. #148

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    i am sorry but David Komnenos never was a king of Trebizond. Alexios I was king of Trebizond. He was great person and respectable commander made few successful campaign to west against turks and Nicaea in help of Latins due to his close relations to latin emperor. BUT he was not a King, Ruler of Trebizond Empire was Alexios I.
    William Miller, Trebizond: The last Greek Empire of the Byzantine Era: 1204-1461, 1926 (Chicago: Agronaut, 1969), p. 17 ---> continue reading this book not stop on 17th page.
    also read this: The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium, VOL1, NY-Oxford 1991, p63
    Toumanoff: "on the relationship between the founder of the Empire of Trebizond and Georgian Queen Tamat" Speculum 15, 1940, p 299-312
    Kuršanskis, «Trébizonde et la Géorgie», p. 238 - here is link on the page ---> http://www.persee.fr/doc/rebyz_0766-..._num_35_1_2073

    Tamar made Trebizond Empire by invadind in Former Byzantine territory, She made her nephew to Rule the kingdom, significant part of Population was Georgians, most of the populations was Greek. and you think that if David was Vassal to latin empire so was Alexios I or whole trebizond, when there was much more powerful Kingdom over there borders who created that kingdom?

    Last edited by Caucasian Iberia; January 31, 2016 at 02:04 AM.

  9. #149

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by +Marius+ View Post
    That is because you are thinking exclusively purely because of the supposed Turkic sound of the very name "Bulgar".

    However, the reality is that the Volga Bulgars were drowned into the genetic pool of Ugro-Finns within a few generations and that the same happened with the Slavic Bulgars.
    I'm not basing my opinion solely on the way that word sounds. The language they spoke was Oghur Turkic (just like modern Chuvash). They called their God "tangra/tengri", their leaders "Khan". Most scholars have no doubt that their langauge was Oghur Turkic, it is mostly modern Bulgarian historians who try to establish a link between the Bulgars and Afghanistan/Balkh for obvious reasons. It was also stated by Persian medieval geographer Estakhri that the language of the Bulgars resembled the langauge of the Khazars, who were another Turkic people. The Bulgars of Balkan peninsula might have became anything later, that's irrelevant.

    The Volga Bulgars adopted the dialect of Cumans (Kipchak Turkic) and gave rise to modern Kazan Tatar people (together with Cuman tribes) during the Golden Horde reign.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishmend View Post
    I'm not basing my opinion solely on the way that word sounds. The language they spoke was Oghur Turkic (just like modern Chuvash). They called their God "tangra/tengri", their leaders "Khan". Most scholars have no doubt that their langauge was Oghur Turkic, it is mostly modern Bulgarian historians who try to establish a link between the Bulgars and Afghanistan/Balkh for obvious reasons. It was also stated by Persian medieval geographer Estakhri that the language of the Bulgars resembled the langauge of the Khazars, who were another Turkic people. The Bulgars of Balkan peninsula might have became anything later, that's irrelevant.

    The Volga Bulgars adopted the dialect of Cumans (Kipchak Turkic) and gave rise to modern Kazan Tatar people (together with Cuman tribes) during the Golden Horde reign.
    Stop with the Turkic propaganda that is totally outdated in the 21th century. The Turkic element in both Bulgarians on the Volga and the Danube had hardly any Turkic elements at all. The Volga Bulgarians got today their Turkic language from the Mongol and Tatar invasions in the 30s of the 13th century when 75% or maybe more the Volga Bulgarians were killed.After that they were Highly influenced by their Dominating Turkic masters for 200 or more years. As I told you in the Bulgarian faction thread - Until the 13th century The Bulgarians had as % Turkic DNA as much as the Bulgarians and Germans Today in both the Danube and the Volga back then.The Thracian DNA in the Danube Bulgarians today and back then is even more than the Turkic one.(the Ottoman Turkic is even less in all balkan nations,But the Modern Turks got for the last 600 or more years more have taken some part of the Balkan and pre islam Asian minor's nations their DNA and mix it up with their own.)

    And I can tell you the Overhaul in the history of Central Asia in the last 30 years about the Nomads from the 4th and 6th century the Turkic element is lowered to the level that only the nomadic elites was with some Turkic elements.
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; February 01, 2016 at 09:32 AM.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    @Caucasian Iberia the sheer fact that Trebizond was asking for help from the Latins and not from the Georgians speaks for itself.if Georgia was aiding Trebizond with its cue full time we wouldnt have heard about asking for help from the Latins...

    It was probably only an initial help from Georgia when creating the Trebizond state as it was common always when there was such a political moves the acting side like georgia wasnt helping full time the political entity that created... It always wanted to do it the most economical way and dont get bogged down in the problems of its newly created puppet/allied state.

    Its the same in todays time.Look at Syria today or Communist Afghanistan in 1979.Or Vietnam for the USA. The Russians were forced to help the Syrian army 4,5 years after the start of the Civil war there.They saw that the Syrian state was failing apart and loosing town after town.Why they didn't helped at the beginning in 2011?? Because they didnt wanted to get bogged down in a war that they cant gain any dividends and that war will only drain their Military strength.they were saving time as much as possible before they were forced to join the war in Syria guard their interests in the region.

    After the fall of Sinope in 1214 this was probably the moment when Georgia started acting in defense of Trebizond from the Sultanate of Rum.

    We know exactly when they became vassals and when they were abandoned from the Latins against their foes.Also the ruler and the second man in the state were 2 brothers.In this Medieval Period - the 13th century it was common brothers to rule their country jointly as co-rulers and having 1 unified strategy ,but it was always 1 over the other nominally.One of them(it wasnt always the elder one who was the ruler,but who was the more abled for the exact job)was the military commander and the other more of the diplomat and working on the internal politics developing the country.There were even cases of not 2 ,but 3 brothers,sometimes switching their political posts. In this Case it was Alexios the ruler and David as the man on the ground leading the armies.

    So from 1205/6 to 1212/3 Trebizond was vassal(client state) of the Latins not to Georgia.But this doesnt make Trebizond not to have trade and non aggression pact to simulate the close relationships with Georgia.
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; February 01, 2016 at 11:20 AM.

  12. #152

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS View Post
    Stop with the Turkic propaganda that is totally outdated in the 21th century.
    That's not "Turkic propaganda", and definitely not outdated or something. Most scholars today (except for Bulgarian ones of course) agree that their langauge was Oghur Turkic. I'm not here to convince you anyway, I was just astonished by the dose of pseudo-historical propaganda in this thread and shared my opinion. Guess I shouldn't have, for it was me who ended up being accused of spreading "Turkic propaganda".

  13. #153

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    And yet, you were the one who warned me about that

  14. #154

    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Caucasian Iberia View Post
    General: Zakharia ("Mxargrdzeli" meaning: Longarmed) Kurdish prince serving Feudal Georgia. age: 55
    Kurdish?

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Danishmend View Post
    That's not "Turkic propaganda", and definitely not outdated or something. Most scholars today (except for Bulgarian ones of course) agree that their langauge was Oghur Turkic. I'm not here to convince you anyway, I was just astonished by the dose of pseudo-historical propaganda in this thread and shared my opinion. Guess I shouldn't have, for it was me who ended up being accused of spreading "Turkic propaganda".
    Hey smart guy - until you start saying something meaningful as more from academia world Noone will take you seriously.Period. The ''Most scholars" from the Communist era talked that some 15 000 legged horsemen with small horses formed the 3rd most powerful empire in Medieval Europe after the Franks and the Romans. Nowadays its more like 2-3 million. And Genetics dont Lie... Thats why i love science - it doest got ego.But surely you do have some...

    Old post of mine in TWC.
    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS View Post
    Second Video.


    My observations on most of the supporters of the East Iranic theory , it seems no one has mentioned the Iranic theory is actually split in two camps - Eastern/Bactrian and Western/Sarmatian), as well as the non-academic autochtonic (i.e. Thracian) theories, also makes me think that their motivations for supporting these theories mostly lie on non-objective reasons. However, - I'd say the main drive is to distance ourselves from the idea of the Bulgars being Turkic as a nation as a hole. Now, the reasons for that are several. The most obvious one is that due to the five centuries of Ottoman yoke, in Bulgaria we generally don't have a particularly positive image of the Turks, which most of us see as our "more recent archenemy" (the older, medieval and now outdated one being, of course, Byzantium). Although I'd say that the view on the Bulgarian Turks and Pomaks (Bulgarian Muslims) in particular is at least mixed at worst (not counting nationalist extremists), as I personally also have an image of the Bulgarian Turks as relatively poor (i.e. on our own level), somewhat conservative and extremely hard-working, honest people. Then again, maybe it's just me...


    Anyway, back to the point - besides the general anti-Turkicness most of us have grown up in Bulgaria with, another factor for distancing ourselves from the old Turkic theory is that the latter was artificially enforced as an actual dogma in our historiography during the communist regime. And now when that regime is gone, the dam is broken and all the pent-up "liberty" and ideas are pouring out, as far away from the old postulates as possible. Before an argument for that, I would first have to explain that, at least according to the common view, including of some of our historians, the reason why our communist authorities wanted to stress so much on the supposed Turkic origin of the Bulgars was itself "racist", as someone from the modern West would say. Namely, the idea was to portray the Bulgars as relatively primitive, but highly warlike "bow-legged Mongoloid savages", who conquered, but were then quickly assimilated by the more sophisticated and superior sea of Slavic tribes, thus underlining our Slavic nature and our natural brotherhood with "Mother Russia"*. Respectively, often the same more-nationalist circles which tend to go for those non-Turkic theories, at least according to my observations, have also started to deny the Slavic nature of modern Bulgarians** or even the existence of Slavs as a whole. So I think this comes to show that an even bigger factor for this tendency is simply the liberation from and revulsion of the old communist propaganda. Of course, that's certainly not the only factor in the psychological picture of this drive, just a big one.


    [*If you haven't seen it, I recommend watching our 1981 movie trilogy "Khan Asparuh", available with English subs on YouTube (apparently, currently as private videos, so you're left with the much worse short dubbed version of Warner Bros) or torrents (seeder available, even if it shows otherwise), which is both interesting and epic on one hand (50 000 real people from the Bulgarian People's Army "playing" the Byzantine army in the third movie) and is often nowadays blamed for being full of the aforementioned communist historical propaganda (though, to be fair, the Slavs, while mentioned as numerous, weren't really portrayed as all that more advanced or special)]
    [**This reminds me, btw, of one extraordinarily ironic "scientific" expedition to Afghanistan from several years ago, called the "Tangra expedition" (i.e. irony №1 - Iranic-theory-expedition under the name of the supposed Bulgar version of the Turkic Sky-God Bir Tengri), and a newspaper's title about it, which went like this: "DNA proved we're not Slavs, we come from Pamir, claims Dr. Slavyan Stoilov" - it makes me chuckle even today.]




    Now, as for my personal opinion on the origin of the Bulgars - as I was very recently discussing the same issue with other people in Total war center , my opinion is that we can relatively certainly trace the Bulgar thread as far back as their time and place in the 4th c. Caucasian-Pontic region. Before that, if there were any people who brought their Bulgar name from somewhere else (i.e. if that name wasn't adopted in the Caucasian region in the first place), their traces are too uncertain at this point. As far as I've been reading on this subject, definitely the absolutely messiest and most fiercely debated one in the whole Bulgarian history, I can safely say that every single person, professional historian or not, who's done some research on the matter, has his specific opinion about it, different from all the rest. Respectively, the proposed origins and homelands vary as wildly as the human imagination can allow - from them being Thracian colonists returning home from the East all the way to them being Koreans (ok, that isn't even serious, except for a few people, maybe), and everything in-between. Respectively, this is true not only among the laymen, like me, but also among the historians - some use sources A and claim they're from the Hindu Kush, others use sources B and claim they're from the Dinglins north of China, thirds go on about Oghurs and Huns, fourths about Balkharans, fifths about Tocharians, sixths about Sarmatians and so on and so forth. Too many Bulgars. It's really tiresome.


    http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/rashev.html


    Rasho Rashev, arguably our best and most qualified archaeologist on the early Bulgar subject. Rashev actually doesn't support the East Iranic/Bactrian theory, but the West Iranic/Sarmatian one. I myself, very much agree with Rashev's opinion, which is very basically this - the Bulgars in their Caucasian period (Kubrat's Old Great Bulgaria in particular) were a tribal confederation of various tribes of different ethnic stock, most notably led by a Turkic/Hunnic aristocracy, while the majority of the other tribes were of a Sarmatian stock and possibly a few were Ugric. The arguments in favour of a Sarmatian origin of the majority of the Bulgars at this stage (and of the Danubian Bulgars later on) are indeed many, in my opinion, but I'll just mention that it was incorrect in listing Asparukh(the Father of Khan Tervel who leads the Danube Bulgaria in the Second siege of Contantinopol in 717-8) as a clearly Turkic name, when even in the times of the aforementioned communist Turkic dogma, Ivan Beshevliev (naturally a supporter of the Turkic theory http://www.kroraina.com/fadlan/besh.html ) in his 1967 study "Iranic elements in the Proto-Bulgarians" (sorry, available in Bulgarian only) clearly demonstrates that it, along with the majority of the names of the other Bulgarian rulers, are Iranic in origin, with a part of the rest being clearly Turkic, a few potentially Ugric and a part - uncertain, either Iranic or Turkic (in the same article he also argues, btw, that the Bulgar runes are "indivisible" from the Sarmatian ones).


    And if you're interested, in this site:
    http://www.kroraina.com/index.php?a=sr&fr=ct&id=2011


    you can find a few studies in English on the matter, showing several of the many theories for the origin of the Bulgars. A quick short guide - Petar Dobrev is the founder and leader of the East Iranic/Bactrian theory (although others have admittedly improved upon him, as Dobrev's arguments are mainly "linguistic", which is not really his specialty, i.e. economic history), while Gancho Cenov (alternatively, Gantscho Tzenoff, as he was known in Germany) was an early 20th century historian, founder and, thankfully, at least no longer leader of the autochtonist movement, whose claims and argumentation are exceptionally weak even by autochtonist standards (which says quite a bit; also, he whines a lot about how our more serious historians, like Zlatarski, have shunned him away).


    Ethnological traits of the ancient Iranian culture in modern-day Bulgarian culture
    http://samoistina.com/2/similarities.htm


    Scholars Claim Bulgarians Descended from Iran
    http://www.novinite.com/articles/117...nded+from+Iran


    On the origin of the Proto-Bulgarians
    http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/rashev.html


    The Origins of Bulgaria: Myths and Facts
    https://blazingbulgaria.wordpress.co...s_of_bulgaria/


    Where did the Bulgarians came from, explains Bulgarian scientist's expedition to the lands of Bactria
    http://samoistina.com/2/wheredidwecamefrom.htm


    Bulgarian Expedition Travels to Iran in Search of Roots
    http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=117192


    The Origins of the Bulgars
    https://www.csc.kth.se/~dilian/bulgars.pdf


    Bulgarians Are Purely Indo-European, Not Turkic - Gene Study
    http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=131894


    Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0056779


    Inscriptions and Alphabet of the Proto-Bulgarians, by Peter Dobrev
    http://groznijat.tripod.com/pb_lang/

    Another site for more info
    http://protobulgarians.com/English%2...%20version.htm
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; February 01, 2016 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread


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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread



    Genetic data from archaeological remains of the ancient population of the Balkans and its proximity to the Bulgarians. The second report presented by Professor Dr. Y. Y. Shopov scientific seminar on ancient civilizations of December 15, 2015 at the Sofia University "St. Kl. Ohridski"

    And I dont care if you dont know bulgarian to learn what the academics in the video talk about,Dear Danishmend.
    Last edited by FrozenmenSS; February 01, 2016 at 05:00 PM.

  18. #158
    finix's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    FrozenmenSS stop with that please.

    And I want too to convince people, that long time no one has studied originate from where the Bulgarians. The truth is that no one except the Bulgarians does not care where we comes from, and for years has been written the same thing. You can not convince people of something they do not want to be convinced.

    This went on for too long. So I please all sides in the dispute to stop here
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    1420-1500 Late period head protection and a few soldier types.
    Disclaimer
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Just because I post a lot of variation, doesn't mean that is a representation of the 17000 archive at large. I've not been to the bottom jet, but for example the simpler stuff like this sallet is more common than the gilded helmets with ornament. That doesn't mean you should hold back, but just keep it in the back of your mind when creating units for the lower class'.

    Last point. Some of the images are very large. Use Ctrl+Mousewheel to zoom out.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Soldiers

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Late 15th century gothic rider (1470) and horse (1480-1490)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Gothic 1480-1490 - full set
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Early 15th century armor typical traits (PS: not universal)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Typical early to mid 15th Century English knight. Fully enclosed, suited for nobles on foot. Notice the rigid throat defense, long skirt and full plate on upper and lower arm/leg. Universal use of sabatons and long skirt for England with this style.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ac068ee0ef.jpg

    Characteristic of Germany or Italy. Often times no upper arm plate protection, some times only mail shirt coming down to the shoulder. Sometimes mail foot protection, sometimes sabatons.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5bddd5a662.jpg


    Heavy infantryman
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Late kettle hat. Brigandine with small sleeves, haubergeon (short mail shirt) and mail collar. Full plate for the limbs, sword and halberd/bill
    http://i.imgur.com/dxMozQb.jpg?2

    1440, similar to the man above. But also a shield.
    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...56-3_large.jpg


    Light infantry
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Basic iron cap. Textile armor, mail, sword and halberd/bill.
    http://i.imgur.com/T4kGTUe.jpg?1


    Archers
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Heavy late crossbowman
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Kettle hat, full plate harnes except upper arm and fauld. What appears to be a falchion and buckler. Perhaps something for Milan faction or another merchant city state.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e8e95b5965.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2bdd8d9423.jpg



    Armor

    1450-1500 mail hauberk


    Head and neck protection
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Neck protection

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Helmets
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Sallet

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    http://i.imgur.com/kSTYCLk.jpg?2

    Sallet is a helmet being commonly worn from the mid 15th century. The helmet is fairly close fitting at the front compared to older pigface bascinet. The close fitting and open at the bottom gave the soldier a fair amount of peripheral vision, but also much needed ventilation. Characteristically, the Italian/French/English style had sallet with a short tail like this, while the German commonly had the longer tail like this. Further comment by Matt Easton on the Sallet and his Italian export styled Sallet.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2df4e26f1f.jpg

    ref_arm_4553_000, Multiply perspectives.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0fcec2fdc4.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d4930b6287.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8ce121f1d8.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2cfeddfbeb.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...39866b4599.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f7c3a0471b.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ba84dfd928.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...47ee25fb86.jpg


    Mix of late Kettle helmets, Sallet and Barbuta, different samples

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...94c5cddbf9.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...58b7852de3.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4924a9980c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...200673cc9f.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...12144a46d2.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...36515f7114.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7096cf8860.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b5c9acdf7b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a150a56cf3.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...be112c3f1e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c7b7465f20.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1f914d677d.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ca1cce4fb6.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0c1247d6e6.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...37a699462a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4bb3b18242.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a7794e2b2b.jpg
    http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections...30_3187094.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...74d3d3fbbc.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ebafbadc5e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c42c973d3e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...41a504299d.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...94c5cddbf9.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b0ea4f8eb0.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...728976ba3d.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...62c65270fe.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0a7afaff81.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f95f8a7db0.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...879839c971.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1f4e8e7193.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...42c2a528d5.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...74bbb9e2ca.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d491194f0a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...90395940dc.jpg
    http://imgur.com/a/fLpvo

    Franco-Burgundian style
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1722b2a50d.jpg

    Sallet with a tail made of lames, probably not cheap.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f5a168c2fb.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...af44496229.jpg

    Sallet of Emperor Maximillian (1459–1519)
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3eb0f65b66.jpg

    Italian
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d2a28bbb5a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4d30e91661.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...946ad3246a.jpg

    Barbuta
    http://imgur.com/a/xANIk
    http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_04.3.232.jpg

    Chalcis type (Venetian greek, mid 15th century)
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ec870db8ba.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2ba4598398.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d1ab062000.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d2a97e85ee.jpg


    Iron cap

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Great Bascinet and Venetian Bascinet

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Equestrian style. (The pigfaced bascinet of old is fairly outdated and shouldn't be used in 1420), the great Bascinet introduced solid throat defense for heavy cavalry in response to the more powerful lance that came at the turn of the century. Commentary and demonstration by Ian Laspina.

    PS: The rigid throat defense might cause issues with models who have too much head movement when a unit is idle, because sometimes they look side to side and the model can wrap the texture. Because of this the Armet, and later on the Sallet and Bevor may be a better choice for Late Period head protection. You guys know best off course.

    Venetian Bascinet

    Lames, transitional neck protection.
    http://i.imgur.com/7NbihO1.jpg?1
    http://i.imgur.com/6WnX1ot.jpg?1

    Venetian, 1420-1440
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...654e51be52.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ba8870b92e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ba16e03f98.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f8d58c262c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7f0fcd706b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...de114c107a.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...28b74f6f2d.jpg

    It's missing the right plate and visor, 1420-1440
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b03eecb451.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3dae596b23.jpg

    Missing visor, 1430-1450
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9e418d2ab6.jpg

    1390-1420
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...837e18484b.jpg

    German, 1430-1450
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...894ae475f9.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...46d2229c9e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7a9234c01a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...94274d14d9.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...402a5fb71c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...630bf22574.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a42a6b7c87.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4162b2a1ec.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b77ee88e0a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...fc5851d101.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...757538bad6.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b12083786f.jpg

    Italy, 1420
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4855e30ef9.jpg

    Milan, 1450
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/churburg-c1450_174.jpg

    Italy, 1450
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/ital...-c1450_896.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4298119894.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ce3bb7908b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2f4d2d3811.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cd1ba4fd3c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f4b01c044b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5d35c5186b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...37568e386f.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1c58886ec9.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c74accfe7f.jpg


    Visors
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...db0a00b0d0.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6f678bdd11.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1d3ed8cebf.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...28b8b4e9fe.jpg


    Earlier, 1400-1420
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...da8ef01fb3.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5fcc127cb3.jpg

    1415
    http://myarmoury.com/talk/files/milan-b1415_614.jpg

    Gothic sallet


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Frog-mouth helmet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I would advise against this type of helmet. 1. It was for the most part a tournament helmet and not suited for anything other than the cavalry charge. Granted it gave exceptional protection when used for the charge, because the helmet was sometimes bolted to the chest armor, negating lance strikes in the process. However, once the rider dismount or tries to fight in close combat the lack of vision and mobility restricts it's battlefield usage drastically. 2. The helmet is completely restricted in movement. If the soldier in game turns his head, the model will look very wonky. If you guys still want more of Frog-Mouth helmets, let me know.

    You might even make a single unit of of mostly these types of helmets, giving them Expert Charge Defense (not sure if Attila have this), but very low melee damage. Could be interesting.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4036c0b610.jpg



    Armet

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Horse head armor



    Decorative suggestions:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Gilded armor



    Painted sallet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    "Black from the hammer finish." gave the metal a rough finish which allowed the metal to be painted on by an artist. This type of embellishment appearing at the very end of the 15th century. Far from common, but we have several examples. Perhaps a form of "warpaint", to commemorate a medieval city you belong to or the patron saint.

    German 'Black' Sallet, circa 1490
    http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?...allet1490c.jpg
    http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?...allet1490b.jpg
    http://pics.myarmoury.com/view.html?...allet1490a.jpg
    Overall height: 7 1/2 in (19 cm); Overall length: 19 1/2 in (49.53 cm)

    http://41.media.tumblr.com/a98138a28...uk2o1_1280.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cb27c5ddbb.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/x3zbwMt.jpg?1

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6e30236a98.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9b09bd9ae7.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e98910137b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...058bf34735.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...21675a28a2.jpg
    http://36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6...hhxo1_1280.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...20c1a01d3b.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b2643ffccb.jpg

    You can spot the guy at the lower left with a painted helmet.

    PS: As with any manuscript looking back at ancient history, be warned about copying this image too much. Although contemporary artists generally copy the armament of their own time, they sometimes portray archaic or non-existing objects to allure a mythological feeling to the story.
    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-U...apestry001.jpg

    Modern attempt
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f78bb90866.jpg
    http://www.royaloakarmoury.com/wp-co...4/05/a82-2.jpg
    http://www.royaloakarmoury.com/wp-co...4/05/a82-5.jpg


    Sallet with cloth



    Horse harness


    Ornate head-piece Sallet

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Special character
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    If you guys are making a Hero character or a man of great importance, then feel free to copy a replica of an English noble armor 1440-1460, built by Robert Macpherson. (PS: I think it's awesome. )

    Description by the creator

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The armour is a full battle harness, made of hardened and tempered medium carbon steel, the closest possible modern equivalent to original medieval steel. It includes two helmets: a) an armet with separate wrapper, for general field use, especially on horseback and a very impressive luxury claw crest. The armet displays a distinctly English character, the visor and brow reinforce, unlike their Italian counterparts, are in form much more like sallets of the period. The armet is also fitted with gilded mail by the renowned mail-maker Erik D. Schmid, the only modern craftsman to have discovered the secret of authentic mail-making b) a great basinet, perhaps the most popular head defence in England during the first half of the fifteenth century, worn in both battle and tournament. In battle the English knight often wore the basinet without a visor, but in tournaments visors were essential. This piece includes two, a lighter, rounded visor for the tourney and a heavier, angular visor for the joust. The latter locks closed by means of a spring-pin mechanism.


    The armour of rich lords and knights was always beautifully decorated. In England, ornamentation most commonly took the form of strips of copper-alloy that were riveted onto the edges of the plates and richly engraved with floral designs and religious inscriptions. These strips, as well as all buckles, hinges, and fittings - copied exactly from sculptural evidence - have been gilded in the same way as the originals. The full visual effect of this form of decoration is here reproduced for the first time since the Middle Ages. The wealthiest knights would also sometimes have their armour blued or blackened, an expensive process that further distinguished them as men of power. This colour has been replicated, bring back to life an image not seen since the fifteenth century. This armour is of special importance to armour scholars because no original armour in the English style is known to have survived to the present day. It represents the culmination of five years of Ph.D. research by Dr. Tobias Capwell, former Curator of Arms and Armour at the Glasgow Museums. Indeed, the distinctive constructional and aesthetic character of English armour in the fifteenth century has only begun to be properly understood as a result of the work of Dr.Capwell. His research, a complex process by which a stylistic understanding of English armour has been reconstructed, was based primarily on the study of funerary monuments. Over three hundred fifteenth-century effigies of men in armour remain in England and Wales, many of which have never been properly studied, published or photographed. These were the key to unlocking the secrets of the English style- several hundred life-sized sculptures, spread throughout the country, never before examined collectively by an armour specialist. But although the study of these artworks yielded a very detailed picture of the development of English armour, there were a number of crucial questions the effigies themselves could not answer. Why was English armour made in the ways represented on the monuments? Why was it so different than continental armour, so unlike the famous Italian and German styles? How did the unusual constructions work? What would the man behind the effigy actually have looked like on the battlefield or in a tournament? This armour was built to answer the questions that only hands-on, physical experimentation could answer. It was made in order to bring back to life one of the great lost styles of armour design, a style that history has forgotten- until now. This creation is one of the finest armours ever produced for modern use. It has been thoroughly tested, in the tournament fields of England, Scotland, and the Netherlands - Dr. Capwell, as well as an academic, is also one of the world's most experienced and successful jousting champions. This armour has kept him alive in combat for two years, and in that time has suffered only the most minor of scratches. A medieval knight would have been proud to wear it.


    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f17a5806d5.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2289/2...19d41069_o.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2298/2...3b7cc7a9_o.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2163/2...b2a23bc5_o.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...bb7bceb772.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2316/2...a48c1786_o.jpg

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2039/2...1632e5c3_o.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2001/2...159b2df8_o.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2110/2...c18f1225_o.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2205/2...831813b2_o.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9eecce7632.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2041/2...70bb0573_o.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6ca0b62813.jpg
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2191/2...38c7f089_o.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...fb107ef42a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f8eba0a9c1.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2f4bb0a3f5.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2b4325a10c.jpg

    https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2325/2...b6b5e2ed_o.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ef87669145.jpg


    A couple more high/late helmets:



    If you want to see greater focus on a specific object or just as much variety of a particular armor piece as possible other than head protection, a specific time frame, weapons, soldier types, etc. or anything else, let me know.

    That's it for now.

    ​~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; March 19, 2016 at 11:58 PM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













    http://imgur.com/a/DMm19
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.

  20. #160
    Kjertesvein's Avatar Remember to smile
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    Default Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

    In this post I wanted to take note of three armour style that is characteristic of a germanic style. It doesn't mean that they were never featured outside, or that these were the only styles used by German soldiers, but these are a characteristic of a style we mainly find in German speaking countries.

    Retention chains

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Chains that hang from the upper chest area, and go to their dagger, sword and helmet to prevent you loosing your equipement during the battle. The chain also allowed the person to swing their helmet on the back without worrying about it. We see these chains mostly in German speaking countries. They go from the chest. Both two to four of these, but normally three.

    Effigies
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Reproduction:


    Bag sleeves

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Either padded or simple textile covering the upper arm. Sometimes hanging down "open", while other times ending and closing around the wrist. Sometimes very extravagant, specially when we move into the first half of the 15th century. This type of 'armour' is a style that is closely linked to the civilian fashion in central and southern Germany, but we also have similar versions in Low Counties and towards the south as well. I personally like the style of the later when it's full of coat of arms, ornaments and flair. The commoner's version is a simple bag type closes in at the wrists, while the ones for jousts is eye catching, if that is a good word.

    Manuscripts (austria, netherlands, germany, etc.)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Civilian effigies:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Martial effigies:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Boppard, 1355
    http://i.imgur.com/EPcFCKz.jpg?1

    Grunsfeld, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/Z6vYLf7.jpg?1

    Boxberg, 1387
    http://i.imgur.com/kMlJBQE.jpg?1

    Arnstadt, 1376
    http://i.imgur.com/A3WKZkr.jpg?1

    Boppard, 1376
    http://i.imgur.com/DbowDuS.jpg?1

    Boppard, 1376
    http://i.imgur.com/neBxApg.jpg?1

    Würzburg, 1389
    http://i.imgur.com/qEHkuF6.jpg

    Hesse, 1393
    http://i.imgur.com/1PrqtTs.jpg

    Bavaria, 1393
    http://i.imgur.com/JBgifZL.jpg

    Arsnberg, 1394
    http://i.imgur.com/o1vazDN.jpg?1

    Grunsfeld, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/tQeGvbM.jpg?1

    Baden-Württemberg, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/s74NCLP.jpg?1

    Bavaria, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/MO4Iy6U.jpg?1

    Kyllburg, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/D6BcLqP.jpg?1

    Oppenheim, 1401
    http://i.imgur.com/odO4nWr.jpg?1

    Wertheim, 1408
    http://i.imgur.com/8chb6u3.jpg?1

    Wurzburg, 1408
    http://i.imgur.com/6zKijEF.jpg?1

    Lorch, 1409
    http://i.imgur.com/EF6pRQZ.jpg?1

    Hesse, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/NB624ND.jpg?1

    Lower-Saxony, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/EOqTWpw.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1400
    http://i.imgur.com/5MTdDQw.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1401
    http://i.imgur.com/NSV2yq6.jpg

    Saxony-Anhalt, 1401
    http://i.imgur.com/RwlNZwx.jpg

    Koblenz, 1411
    http://i.imgur.com/SD4A2kG.jpg?1

    Baden-Württemberg, 1407
    http://i.imgur.com/Jk6x3wu.jpg

    Bavaria, 1410
    http://i.imgur.com/SH2zYCd.jpg?1

    Hesse, 1410
    http://i.imgur.com/6orTdFX.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1412
    http://i.imgur.com/Rhq5zXc.jpg?1

    Bavaria, 1421
    http://i.imgur.com/jlfpXXg.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1431
    http://i.imgur.com/u1KqPZc.jpg?1

    Bavaria, 1431
    http://i.imgur.com/0E6PzGS.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1432
    http://i.imgur.com/subFzFA.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1433
    http://i.imgur.com/2gwBKXs.jpg?1

    Rhineland-Palatinate, 1433
    http://i.imgur.com/GGVvplD.jpg?1

    Franconia, 1432
    http://i.imgur.com/N4bWPYH.jpg?1

    Hesse, 1437
    http://i.imgur.com/smUokwR.jpg?1



    Other factions:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Switzerland, 1376
    http://i.imgur.com/ugJmI64.jpg?1

    Liège, Belgium, 1379
    http://i.imgur.com/AOYxaXD.jpg?1

    Huy, Belgium, 1389
    http://i.imgur.com/RwXEyKC.jpg?1

    Gelderlands, Netherlands, 1421
    http://i.imgur.com/gjEetvv.jpg?1



    Re enactor:





    Bretache

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Bretache was a nasal guard that was attached to the bottom of the aventail around the chin, then raised up to the central part of the scull of the Bascinet. It does show up in both France and Italy as well, but mostly German speaking countires. We have examples of them all the way from mid 13th century to mid 15th century, but mostly from 1330 to 1370s. Starting out as mail, but transferring into a plate defense. This gave the person excellent vision. It was also a middle-ground between the protection of a full visor and the ability to breath freely and the vision that an open-face bascinet provided.

    It could look this, but there are also many other types.

    Manuscripts


    Effigies

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    EDIT: MORE

    Unique German units, Flanders and Strasbourg -militia.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Suggestions:

    Strasbourg Handgunners. Has it's own unique handgunners of more than average quality and better moral.

    Magdeburg Cannons. Has a artillery unit with higher rates of fire.

    Nuremberg Artillery (mercenary?)

    ------------------------

    15th century Nuremberg, good artillery.

    Hanseatic towns, embargo on exporting it's guns out of it's city.

    Strasburg renown riflemen.

    Give ear to me, you princes high
    For I advise you faithfully
    To keep the town as your ally--
    They have such good artillery;
    With guns that shoot so rapidly.

    - Folk singer warning of Magdeburg, 1340s.
    (The Medieval Town, Power and Institutions, p. 164. Fritz Rörig: 1)

    Flanders (images from mid 14th century) and suggestions on how to create their faction
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The images of the Flemish militia ~1350. Notice that that the archers and crossbows have sword side arms. The original is gray, and were lost in 1911. The painted images are reconstructed imaged.





    Suggestion

    These are mostly my suggestions based on the historical images of their different guilds. I don't know Belgian nor have I researched this, so other people from Belgium probably know more than me regarding their roster.:

    Make units that are called the name of each of the guilds, because that's how they were organized in battle. They would all mostly have geodendag in each company, but for the sake of uniqueness, I suggest exploiting what we see from the images. For example:


    • Archers / Crossbowmen are called Brotherhood of St George[1][2][3].
    • Normal Goedendag or pikes unit is called Brotherhood of St Sebastian, they have a lot of shields so probably a front-line type unit. Possibly a late game version with Late pole type Goedendag (see album below for examples).
    • (Double handed) Axe unit is called Butcher's Guild.
    • Falshion unit (or sword and shield) is called Fishmongers’ Guild.
    • Armed with a short (1 handed) Geodendag and shield, because the short geodendag looks like the image in the Baker's Guild banner.
    • This unit have some boost to moral and is called Brewers’ Guild (I know you're smiling reading that. ).
    • Textile was the main export of Flandern, so perhaps the Textile Cutters’ Guild is reserved for spears or pikes, because it's such a big enterprise, lots of men to fill the ranks.


    Album of different Geodendag.
    http://www.warfare.altervista.org/14/Leugemeete.htm


    There also needs to be a patrician's guild for horsemen, as we see from the picture of St George guild, the mounted man has a crossbow in his hand. Perhaps a Mounted Crossbow unit with sword.


    Strasbourg militia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Based on the armour, I'll put my money on very late 14th century, probably 1380-1400. All the guys with leg harness are probably an officer or patrician, because those types of armour are custom made for the wearer. They follow the exact shape and contours of the wearer's extremities. You can't enroll for the militia one year and expect to find a fit in the munition armoury. Complete leg- and arm harness (and sabatons) is usually for the those who can afford it (the rich). However, a pair of gauntlets, helmets and quilted jack/visby armour are still common as munition armour, because those type of gear can be used by men of different shapes and sizes.




    I suggest a similar treatment here like I suggested for the Flemish militia, to name them according to their guild.

    "The government of Strasbourg was based on twenty guilds, which were unions of craftsmen. Each guild named 15 "Schoeffen" (aldermen) for its own administration, and the all 300 aldermen composed the Town Senate. The "Ammeister", a craftsman named by the Senate, was president of the small republic. He was assisted by four patricians, called "Stettmeister". The Magistrate was structured with: (1) the "Dreizehnerstub" (Council of the thirteen) for defense and foreign affairs, (2) the "Fuenfzehnerstub" (Council of the fifteen) for finance and affairs of the interior, and (3) the "Zunftgericht" (Guildal law-court) for the judicial affairs. An important fact was that the Magistrate consisted of two craftsmen for every patrician. All full-citizens swore an oath on the "Schwoerbrief" (literally, "letter of oath"), a condensed constitution, each year in front of the Cathedral, this lasted from 1349 until 1789


    The Town militia was made up primarily of gunners, crossbowmen and heavy infantry (which are depicted deploying in full armor on carts in a stained glass window in the Strasbourg Cathederal) but also included a small but significant force of heavy cavalry, who were mostly derived from the 'Constafler' or patrician socieities. According to the Osprey Military Book "German Medieval Armies", in an unnamed battle the City of Strasbourg in 1363 fielded 81 �Lances� from among the Merchant �Patricians�, 21 from the Guilds, 5 from the boatmen, 4 from the storekeepers, and 4 from the wine merchants, for a total of 115 lances."
    http://www.freifechter.com/academics...val-strassburg

    The cavalry division was supposedly called (patrician) Konstofeler, who among others, Gutenberg was a member of in the early parts of the 15th century (half-sauce).

    If anyone are German, then you should be able to get in contact and look up the muster rolls at the http://www.mainz.de archive.




    Regulations regarding musters and militias
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Frisian, Scottish, Italian and other laws regarding muster and militias.

    Old Frisian Law, 12th century
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Source: http://www.languageandlaw.org/SKELTANA.HTM

    Five weapons: With spade and with fork, with shield, and with sword, and with spear. (spade and fork? maybe some sort of siege defense equipment and polearm? I don't know)
    Requirements that a free Frisian who owns property worth

    30 pounds: Horse and weapon for the defense of the realm.
    20 pounds: (probably) pole or long weapon.
    12 pounds: Spear and shield.
    He who own less: Quiver and bow.


    Scottish
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1318 Scottish Parliament Roll, the basic requirements of the land-


    "Concerning the equipment of those coming to the war according to [the amount] they have in goods


    Item, it was ordained and assented that each layman of the kingdom having £10 in goods should have for his body in defence of the kingdom a sufficient haqueton,† a basinet, and mailed gloves with a lance and sword. And anyone who shall not have a haqueton and a bacinet should have a good habergeon†or a good iron [coat of mail] for his body, a cap of iron and mailed gloves, so that each should be prepared with the said equipment around the octave of Easter next to come [15 April 1319]. And whoever has £10 in goods [and] shall not then have all the said equipment of arms should lose all his goods. With the proviso that the lord king [Robert I] should have a half of the goods and the lord of he who was found to be in default should have the other half. And the lord king wishes that each sheriff of the kingdom with the lords of places should investigate concerning these things and immediately cause a muster after the aforesaid octave of Easter. Moreover the lord king wishes and commands that anyone having the value of one cow in goods should have a good lance or a good bow with a sheath of arrows, namely twenty-four arrows with the pertinents, under the prescribed penalty."

    "As well this line makes me uncomfortable how it is translated and I have not been able to get back to Scotland to have a look at the original. "And anyone who shall not have a haqueton and a bacinet should have a good habergeon†or a good iron [coat of mail] for his body, a cap of iron and mailed gloves, so that each should be prepared...". Here is the Latin on their site, " unum bonum ferrum pro corpore suo...", "simply put one good iron for their body". I have no reason to doubt their Laton so I am assuming this is it. It is not unique but in the period it is unlikely to set minimum requirements on mail and have both a hauberk and habergeon. They are minimum requirements. A hauberk is superior to a habergeon so it would be unnecessary to say you must have at least a habergeon and hauberk. I have only seen a few like this. But what sets off the alarm bells is mostly the good iron direct translation. Plates or iron listed as torso armour very likely means a pair of plates. If it were a decade later that would be much more certain. What makes me wonder most is 1318 would be earlier than the first requirement I know in large scale like this for commoners as minimum requirements but as I have said before I do not believe Scotland is as far behind as many do. As well they translate mail gauntlets, " cyrotecas de guerra" This simply says gauntlets of war. By the 1300s gauntlets exist as plate and scale form so I have concerns on this as well. " Modern interpretation.


    James III (1456)
    "And that no poor man nor unprovided be charged to come to any raids in England, and that each man whose goods extend to 20 marks be furnished at least with jack, with sleeves to the hand or else a pair of splints, a sallet or a pricking hat, a sword and a buckler, a bow and a sheaf, and if he can not shoot that he shall have an axe and a targe either of leather or of board with two handis (handgrips?) on the back. And throughout all shires they are to be warned to provide for such things and to come and make their 'weapon-showing' before the sheriffs, bailies or stewarts of regalities on the morning after the law days after Yule. And whoever comes not bearing as appropriate, after his fault, is to be punished in his goods, and so forth their 'weapon-showing' is to be continued from 30 days to 30 days, etc. "

    - Hauberk reaches down to the thigh.
    - Haubergeon is basically a t-shirt.
    - 'Targe with two handis', perhaps leather straps over the fore arm like you see on heater shield(?).
    - Lance, another term for spear.
    - I have doubts whether it's actually a bascinet that they're talking about as layman's munition armour in 1318. I don't have the primary sources, so it's hard to tell, but perhaps they're referring to a set of Iron Cap with mail coif underneath. Perhaps a cross between an early open face bascinet and a iron cap covering more of the head, who knows.
    - Coat of mail, Visby armour.
    - haqueton, aketon. Padded jack.
    - Sheaf is a bundle of arrows.
    - Yule, Christmas.



    Italy
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Lombardy, Statutes of Bologna, 1256
    http://archive.org/stream/statutidel...a...8/mode/1up

    "Decrees and ordains the arms required by members of the alliance, though the armor defined is difficult to interpret: Shield or scrimetum, helm or caçetam (mail coif?), cubam or quayferiam or lameriam body armors. Requires the marking of arms with the symbols or heraldry of the alliance, both on the inside and back (inside and outside?) Requires one entering the alliance between February 1st and Michaelmas (29 September) to obtain required arms within a month, or within 2 months during the holiday season. Requires an official inspection of the arms at the time they should be obtained or penalties if this is not done. Gives a penalty of 5 solidus (gold coins) for failure to have the required arms. "

    Statuti Della Societa Dei Vari, 1256
    http://archive.org/stream/statutidel...a...3/mode/1up


    "Requires members to maintain a scutum shield; capelictam de coro (leather kettlehat?) or capellum de ferro headpiece of iron, but does not allow the caçetam (mail coif?). No body armor is required. A 5 solidus (gold coin) penalty is given to those who refuse to come to drill or to those who lack the proper equipment."


    See this link for English, Scandinavian and more detailed descriptions: http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic....114&highlight=


    EDIT2:

    European armour part 2/4
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Sabaton
    Iron capKettlevisors for bascinetSallet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Armet
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Textile foundation plate armour, notice the rivets ornaments on the visby armour, first pictureBretache(nose guard)Open-face bascinetComplete suit
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...05f50b5a7e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0756fe45b2.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a6292c60ce.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...de8fe62aa8.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...fd0d1b319c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...529dc33819.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...bf35a2e706.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4be52418b3.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e19f35f681.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...94c38b3c84.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7d52e06515.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3b982c5aba.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f58bca9d4a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c7949a8625.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e65f281e7b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...601005015f.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...19de0c35a1.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d5d1556d78.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...12f1f14bb7.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...76b168a145.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a4fc03cff9.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8f77a97b06.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...14066d9232.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3e1319c5cb.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...90d7e3a7b1.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...34878c5bb7.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4ed7d6c3a7.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7443ab3766.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7f423bd229.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0687ecdcb5.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2ae94188fb.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4d33924489.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...792cea765f.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...428cce032e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b0a5c7f6d0.jpg

    Breastplate
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...06a8914c14.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...eaa8bb8c4c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...52984542af.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...05259c12e7.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9143448655.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5ea3d87161.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7a16320827.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...761241fa8f.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...753fe5fb1e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b66edee9b4.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9d36d83297.jpg (should be covered by textile)
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e75210aadf.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...318753a5fd.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...144da879a5.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7f9a74ff14.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...03a03abf23.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5a4167d90c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7c88dce034.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...60043d7477.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e299356ea4.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3464b2ded2.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...40e260d08b.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d8011bf394.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...65bf24fdba.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c048238138.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0cb1e93e02.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...94a61b2c01.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...946d92500e.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d079a243f9.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...828ead6f13.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...77f2632721.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...743885e5f2.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...884cbe4abc.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b2545fc4ce.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3823ed1d6c.jpg

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1137e33900.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8efd3fe1fb.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ce794e7ccb.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5cdf3d6b50.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6f0d87ef31.jpg

    Backplate
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    BarbuteBevorLegharness
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    BehindGlovesGilded/Ornament
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Strange helmets
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Looks like tournament/jousting helmets


    Gunpowder Post


    ABC timeline of the evoltion of gunpowder
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Roughly speaking, an evolution of gunpowder. More detail: http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/cannon/cannon.htm


    13th century cannons/hangunners in Arabia, muslim spain and china. ( This first post is mostly about Europe, more on other regions later. )


    Pot-de-Fer, early 14th century Europe. Shooting mostly arrows.


    Smaller cannons (and handguns), mid 14th century. Mostly for siege scenario on a immobile gun bed. Available to most feudal armies according to Froissart.


    Wheels, late 14th century, but only become popular in artwork as we move into the 15th century. Breach-loading swivel guns are introduced late 14th century as well.


    15th, we now see actual variety and popularity. Several manuscripts dedicated to gunpowder become available.


    Evolution of more sophisticated and refined cannons takes off towards the turn of the 15-16th century.


    Recreation of several gun types
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cc18509278.jpg

    Images:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Artillery
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Classifying all cannons, like any other medieval weapon, is a modern concept. However, if we take the English Ordinance of the 16th century we have one system (out of many)






    Iron Pots / Pot-de-Fer



    Immobile Cannons


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The earliest cannons, a short description:
    During the Houndred Years' War (1339-1453) cannon came into general use. Those early pieces were very small, made of iron or cast bronze, and fired lead or iron balls. They were laid directly on the ground, with muzzles elevated by moundingup the earth. Being cumbrous and inefficient, they played little part in battle, but were quite useful in siege.

    Archaeological
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faule_Magd 1410 (mounted on a bed 1510)
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...52b65e2907.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c55d0cbf0b.jpg 15th . Alcázar castle in Segovia, Spain.
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?...06590&format=2 246 cm L., 1401/1500, Germany. Unknown what kind of gun bed was used.
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?...06664&format=2 284 cm L., 1401/1500, Germany. Uknown what kind of gun bed was used.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23599.html 1480-1520, England. Unknown what kind of gun bed was used.




    Recreation/Unknown
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1ed9ed823c.jpg



    Mobile Cannons


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    While there as little real progress in mobility until the days of Gustavus Adolphus, the wheeled artillery carriage seems to have been invented by the Venetians in the fifteenth century. The essential parts of the design were early established: Two large, heavy cheeks or side pieces set on an axle and connected by transoms. The gun was cradled between the cheeks, the rear ends of which formed a "trail" for stabilizing the maneuvering the piece.
    Wheeels were perhaps the greatest problem. As early as teh 1500s carpenters and wheelwrights were debating whether dished wheels were best. "They say," reported Collado, "that the [dished] wheel will never twist when the artillery is on teh march. Others say that a wheel with spokes angled beyond the cask cannot carry the weight of the piece without twisting the spoke, so the wheel does not last long. I am the same opinion for it is certain that a perpendicular wheel wil suffer more weight than the other. The defect of twisting under the pieces when on the march will be remedied by making the cart a little wider than usual."
    However, advocates of the dish wheel finally won.
    Archaeological
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c625117a4a.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0bc889b391.jpg Gun bed reconstructed. Gun is from 2nd half of 15th, St. Wendel, Germany.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6b5e2ad896.jpg Culvrin, unknown date, Strasbourg.


    Contemporary images
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...68c4ae023e.jpg 1410-1420
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...33eafe9c37.jpg 1410-1420
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...33eafe9c37.jpg probably late 15th
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0834b41bca.jpg Late 15th century
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...feb6e6c6d0.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...4149d1ca57.jpg
    http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/y...6.jpg~original 15th.


    Recreation/unknown
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2c494e6728.jpg 15h, Burgundy,
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...086168a7a6.jpg Recreation of ~1500 Maximillian inventory





    Mortars


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Archaeological
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ec8a14a9c3.jpg 15th, Castello del Verme, Italy
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5a3cfd02d7.jpg 1377, Cologne, Germany
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...30d2820c16.jpg ~1400, Vienna.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b457aef9be.jpg 1350, Kindermuseum Adlerturm Dortmund, Germany
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a4e7d4e7fd.jpg 15th, England. With wheels.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ccc941546a.jpg Early 15th, Kwidzyn Castle Poland. Used by Teutonics.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b507ea1cd2.jpg Burgundy, 15th.
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?...04693&format=2 "Iron block" 116 cm L., 67 cm W., 48.5 cm d., 1401/1449, Germany
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?...07444&format=2 Almost the same measurement as the one before.
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?...07445&format=2 65 cm L., 28 cm W., 1401, Bosnia.
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/img.php?...06587&format=2 84 cm L., 17 cm W., 1401/1450


    Contemporary images
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5a34d2a4a2.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...be544f8c26.jpg 1470-80
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...53f78b8b48.jpg Probably late 15th
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a4ead2b5f6.jpg 1490-1500
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a581e38857.jpg 15th, mortars with wheels
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f9659da939.jpg 15th, mortars with wheels
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...566e95486c.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9eac14a325.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...e8a7791746.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...706e3a7268.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...516f2bf5f7.jpg 3rd quarter of the 15th.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9eac14a325.jpg 3d quarter of the 15th.


    Recreation/unknown
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7499f59b03.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...59f1b99fb5.jpg 15th



    Grand Bombard/-Mortars


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faule_Grete early 15th, Teutonic order.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumhart_von_Steyr early 15th, Austria.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faule_Mette Massive mortar, early 15th, Brunswick, HRE.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulle_Griet Early 15th, Ghent, Flanders.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mons_Meg mid 15th century, Scotland.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-2703.html Mons Meg.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanelles_Gun third quarter of the 15th century, Turkey. Those two parts would be attached.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-6177.html Dardanelles Gun
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...s1480-1500.jpg 15th century, Rhodes.



    Ship cannons


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Archaeology
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-34046.html 1500-50, England. This could be used by the English navy, but it's uncertain speculation on my part.

    http://www.artic.edu/aic/collections...11_3929082.jpg Early 16 th century.

    http://www.maritimearchaeology.dk/do...antmen_web.pdf Dissertation of navel guns. Some of these guns look very similar to 15th century guns and therefor can be used to intepret earlier versions.

    A summery of the above post regarding late 15th century navel guns: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post14975113




    Ribaulds


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In 1346 we see early mention of an order of 100 Ribalds (centum minutis ingeniis vocatis ribaldis) in the Tower Armouries of England. As we read from Richardson's thesis, "Wooden boards and other timber, axles, wheels, nails, lances with steel heads, ropes and other components were assembled at the Tower to produce them for Calais, but probably not in time for Crecy according to Tout. Tout also confirm this is an early form of Organ gun with groups of small cannons or bombards being able to fire in quick succession or all at once. However, according to A.V.B. Norman, they were most likely wheeled carts made of wood strapped with spears and that these were most likely not fitted with guns. He points out that we see similar engines in Bruges, before the accepted date of introduction of guns, and demonstrating that these wagons do not need guns. The use of Ribaulds with guns may may therefor be pushed back than what may be suggested by Tout. Ribaulds reappear in 1360-2, where 3 are ordered in addition to Mantlets. Kyeser display a Ribaulds with 4 guns lined next to each other in 1401.




    Archaeology
    http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?...fld_0=AK006654 ~1500s, Germany. Measurements:
    Height: 9 cm oak board.
    Width: 52 cm oak board, front.
    Width: 55.5 cm oak board, back.
    Length: 68 cm axis
    Length: 86 cm oak board
    Length: 107 cm min barrel
    Length: 118 cm max barrel
    diameter: 2.6 cm min caliber
    diameter: 3.2 cm max caliver
    weight: 103 kg


    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8137228bb0.jpg


    Contemporary images
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ci_studies.jpg da Vinci, Italy, Late 15th century.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._Blatt_74v.jpg Bellifortis, Kyeser, 1401, Germany.
    http://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.d...t/zoom/3656901 The closest comparison to CA's Ribuld. The book is dated to ~1500. "Ms germ qu" 52r



    Gunpowder projectiles




    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Archaeological


    Incendiary gun arrows, 1330 germany
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...90ea79385e.jpg


    Incendiary cannon ball, 14th century. France. Hay or hemp rope, possibly dipped in some form of oil.
    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...p=20&pos=2


    Grapeshot container, 15-16th century, Museum of Sweden.
    http://albrechts.se/wp-content/uploa...ntainer_01.jpg

    Nails and other unpleasantries. Found in Denmark on a ship wreck. Late 15th to early 16th century. See the dissertation in the navel section for further descriptions.
    http://i.imgur.com/M5uu31J.jpg?1


    Contemporary images


    Recreation/unknown



    Cannon Mantlets


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The ponderosity of the large bombards held them on level land, where they laid on rugged mounts of heaviest wood, anchored by stakes driven into the ground. A gunner would try to put his bombard 100 yards from the wall he wanted to batter down. One would surmise that the gunner, being so close to the castle wall manned by expert Genoese Crossbowmen, was in precarious position. He was; but earthworkds or a massive wooden shield arranged like a seesaw over his gun gave him fair protection. Lowering the front end of the shield made a barricade behind which he could charge his muzzle loader.

    Archaeological


    Contemporary images
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f8330d7802.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...877fa8f121.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a4ead2b5f6.jpg late 15th
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2d9ba16106.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...ed97b33a2d.jpg Feuerwerksbuch, Merz 1450+, Germany.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0dcc52f70b.jpg Pastrana tapestry, 15th century, Italy.


    Recreation/unknown
    http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lo...03/A003457.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a3e462d2b3.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9548e69cd5.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...3188d0ee19.jpg




    Handguns
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-56294.html Mamluk Emir's gun 1450-1500, Syria.



    Gunner Accessory
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Flags


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Zurich, Germany
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...2f6056385d.jpg Zurich Handgun banner
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1d06829138.jpg Zurich Crossbow banner


    Uppsala, Sweden
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...dje_sigill.png Handgun unit marched under the banner of Saint Eric, as he was depicted in 1330s
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...en_bra.svg.png Coat of arms of stockholm, image of Eric, 2016

    Gunner bags
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    We often see square leather bags on gunners as a standard fashion. Flasks/Bandolier were first seen in the 16th century.


    Contemporary images


    Ammo bags
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...a90d527202.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...7107c54e80.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...1c1e464fda.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...76e4a2cfe6.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...d9149dde8d.jpg
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...6ae7edc0a5.jpg (Rare bronze/brass flask, Nuremberg, 1500-10)


    Recreation
    https://cdn1.cdnme.se/54514/8-3/sold...1c9bf54b3a.jpg Nice image of a Swedish gunner, mid-late half of 14th century. You can see the bag on his waist area.







    Loading equipment
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Perhaps use these as makeshift weapons for artillery crew.


    Contemporary images
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...f5a216d94e.jpg 1535, Germany.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...813287ab14.jpg 16th century, Germany.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cf17bf79e2.jpg 1500s, Germany.
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...0ca7e9c9a6.jpg 1530, Germany.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-1294.html 1520, England.


    Recreation/unknown


    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9c950ad285.jpg Artillery crew equipment.



    Gun colours


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Contemporary images
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...b9f7f37e6a.jpg ~1500s, Germany



    Post- 1500:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Interesting to compare with earlier versions. More refined.






    Shields with guns. From the King's ship, Mary Rose, 1540, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-2638.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-2640.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-2639.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-3286.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-3285.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-3288.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-2642.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-2641.html


    Weapon gun combination.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-3293.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-3294.html
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ject-3295.html


    Cannons
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-32226.html 1500-50, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23670.html 1550, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-24148.html 1500-40, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23600.html 1500-40, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-12229.html 1500-99, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-12936.html 1500-30, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-12935.html 1500-30, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23247.html 1529, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23323.html 1535, France.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-33920.html 1524, Turkey.


    Basilisk
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-22254.html 1500-1599, Utrecht, Netherlands. Bronze is believed to be Viktorian.


    Cannon ornament
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-35448.html 1558, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23482.html 1550, England.
    https://collections.royalarmouries.o...ect-23601.html 1542, England.


    Other guns that I've not matched up against a particular date or location
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Archaeological - Archaeological remains. Many of these engines may have Victorian elements made by museums to "fix" them, such as the gun bed.


    Contemporary images - Images made by medieval artists of the time. These are more appropriate to judge what kind of gun bed and other elements. However, size is sometimes distorted. Size is some times enhanced so that the reader can understand how certain things fit together. See Archaeology for more accurate size comparison.


    Recreation/unknown - Modern recreation of guns, or guns that may appear to be contemporary, but lack sufficient information.



    M2TW Cannons


    ~Wille
    Last edited by Kjertesvein; May 17, 2016 at 11:45 PM.
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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