Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

[reichmar]

This is a great source for Iberian military organization from 1000-1284: http://libro.uca.edu/socwar/war.htm

Also, my .02 on traits:

Cultural Trait:

Reconquista! (20-30% morale bonus while fighting Moorish factions)


Faction Traits:

Portugal: Fiercely Independent -- +1 recruitment capacity while at war/in starting regions

OR

Call of Christendom: ability to hire (in starting regions) unique military order troops/ mercenaries more frequently/reduced cost

[englisharcher89]

Nice thread, it's good to see people are looking into historical accuracy for unit look. Medieval II was absolutely terrible in this regard, this one of the reasons why I can't even look at this game anymore, anyways I saw only few gampelay, and going to download this mod later this day.

I saw Holy Roman Empire units, can we uhmm get rid of Zwiehanders and replace them with something different like halberds or poleaxe?? I mean, come on... they were not used until XVI century.

[Ltd.]

Nice thread, it's good to see people are looking into historical accuracy for unit look. Medieval II was absolutely terrible in this regard, this one of the reasons why I can't even look at this game anymore, anyways I saw only few gampelay, and going to download this mod later this day.

I saw Holy Roman Empire units, can we uhmm get rid of Zwiehanders and replace them with something different like halberds or poleaxe?? I mean, come on... they were not used until XVI century.

well, that is not necessarily entirely true. Early versions of the longsword / 2h sword have been used as early as the 13th century as well. Note also, that this Zweihänder unit will be a later era unit, so once transitional or later era reforms kick in (depends on how we get along with campaign stuff) you`ll see them.
Important note: obviously not all units you have seen in the previews are to appear in early gameplay. As the mod´s time-frame is supposed to go well into the 15th century, well, there´s where you´ll be able to recruit these.

[englisharcher89]

well, that is not necessarily entirely true. Early versions of the longsword / 2h sword have been used as early as the 13th century as well. Note also, that this Zweihänder unit will be a later era unit, so once transitional or later era reforms kick in (depends on how we get along with campaign stuff) you`ll see them.
Important note: obviously not all units you have seen in the previews are to appear in early gameplay. As the mod´s time-frame is supposed to go well into the 15th century, well, there´s where you´ll be able to recruit these.

True they used half and a hand swords later on in XV century, later on zweihanders were used mainly to break the line of pike formation as presented here










There is good article about Zweihander and it's history

http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html#.VWokhEZUqVI

Same goes for Claymore in Scottish Army, shouldn't be in any Medieval game at all, or maybe very late era around AD 1500, this actually what was wrong about Medieval II

And I'm really glad that this mod focuses on 1212 - 1450 it's definitely better timeframe for Medieval than say 1080 - 1500 way too long.

I don't want you to think that I want to argue it' suppose to be Research thread, so just posting ideas.. I'm reenactor myself and historical accuracy is really rare thing in games like Total War, just recent ones Rome II and Attila seems to get it right, as for Vanilla version. Wish you luck with mod, and can't wait for ATTILA version.

[+Marius+]

Nice thread, it's good to see people are looking into historical accuracy for unit look. Medieval II was absolutely terrible in this regard, this one of the reasons why I can't even look at this game anymore

Try some medieval II mods, Stainless Steel(and its submods) first comes to mind.

True they used half and a hand swords later on in XV century, later on zweihanders were used mainly to break the line of pike formation as presented here

Hand and half swords "later on" in 15th century?
They were in popular use since the 1260s and became completely widespread by the 1320s.

The zweihanders appear in the late 15th century but did not achieve popularity until the 16th century and it was not only used for breaking pike formations, in fact, we do not actually have evidence that it was its primary purpose.
It was pretty much an all-around two handed weapon that could be used as a polearm but was far more versatile/faster in combat.

But you know, they are just to awesome to throw away

[warman222]

So I'm moving on to the French nations now, i.e France, Burgundy, Toulouse and Provence. What I should also note is that like England with the Earldom units, I want to have a similar thing here. Essentially variants of many of the earlier units with banners, emblems and colors of their noble to whom they serve. Basically after some research here's the noble houses I'm going to give representation in this way. (Including Faction Leaders)

France:

French King
County of Anjou
Duchy of Brittany
County of Dreux
Duchy of Bar
County of Perche
Duchy of Normandy
Count-Bishopric of Beauvais

France/Provence:

Dauphin of France

Provence:

Count of Foix
Viscounty of Beziers

Toulouse:

Count of Toulouse
Viscounty of Limoges

Burgundy:

Duke of Burgundy
County of Champagne
County of Brienne
County of Chatillon

I think that sounds about right... right? Also I should note that I will not be dividing up France, Burgundy and such like I did England and the Earldoms. They will just be different looking general units and AOR units on the campaign map and such.

Some other things I need to address here, someone asked on the other thread about the knightly retinue units having an infantry form and whether or not that should be. These aren't the same knight units like you guys saw in the Rome 2 versions, these are the knightly retinue units. Allow me to explain what this means:

We took the original knight units and broke it up into either nobles with mini rosters like the Earldoms or we placed them as variants in the knightly retinue units. From there we further combined the latter with the men at arms units from Rome 2 version. We decided that the term "Men at Arms" is too generic and has too many meanings to be placed on a specific unit(hence the late era unit you guys saw has the WIP title by it) So essentially the knightly retinue units are made up of lesser nobles and wealthier serjeants and because the men at arms units in Rome 2 had a dismounted version we figured we carry that over to reflect that blend.

God I hoped that all made sense, it's almost midnight where I am so I might edit this tomorrow to make it more coherent.

[VINC.XXIII]

France:

French King(Ancient form, Lys everywhere, not the three ones adopted in XIVth century) -- http://fr.academic.ru/pictures/frwik...e_ancien_1.svg
County of Anjou-- Ancient(Plantagenet) http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org...ance/Anjou.htm
Duchy of Bar


France/Provence:

Dauphin of France-- Louis VIII didn't received apanage from P.Auguste, and Dauphiné was even a fief held by a vassal. "Dauphiné" became the equivalent of Crown-Prince personal possession only in 1349. Before the King given to his son a random fief...or not, in the case the son remained in the Hostel(royal House) of his father and displayed the heraldry of his father on the battlefield!

Burgundy:

Duke of Burgundy---Before 1361 : Bandé d'or et d'azur, à la bordure de gueules, dit "Bourgogne ancien"

I think other are pretty obvious.

"The Fiefs"
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armori...aume_de_France

Edit: I must say I don't remember your King of France on battlefield, but I saw the wrong french UI(wrong for 1212) on the political map.

Philippe Auguste as he would have been at Bouvines
Another(with Saint Denis hypothical banner behind him, if you don't know, just put a plain red banner as personnal one for him, thats the sacred banner of France, very very important...)
http://www.bouvines2014.fr/wp-conten...heartisans.jpg

[warman222]

Thanks for the clarifications there. I knew about the differences between the French King COA, I actually didn't notice that Jan did the wrong one so I'll need to talk to him about that, I know I've been using the right one, so yeah. That reference pic is also really helpful too btw. Pretty much all the coat of arms related research I've already done and based on what you posted the only thing I need to change is the emblem I used for Anjou. And taking out the Dauphin of course.

[Slytacular]

About Zweihanders, it was a more iconic weapon during the 16th century than it was in the 15th century. This mod extends to the mid 15th century, the Zweihanders are mentioned as to appear late 15th century. Unless I am shown legitimate proof that there are Zweihanders appeared before 1453, I will discourage the addition of Zweihander units because it is a more Renaissance unit.

[warman222]

Okay guys, I won't put in the Zweihander unit, happy?

Anyways, in case you didn't get the vibe from the last major post I made in this thread, I'm going to be using this thread for discussion and minor teasers and screens of stuff that is less complete for feedback. For example, here's a comparison picture I took of the French King Phillip II Auguste.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I like to think it's spot on, save for a slight helm difference and the shield being more based on the Battle of Bouvines picture seen here:

http://www.bouvines2014.fr/wp-conten...heartisans.jpg

Also per VINC's suggestion, I've adjusted the list of featured noble houses slightly.


France:

French King
County of Anjou
Duchy of Brittany
County of Dreux
Duchy of Bar
County of Perche
Duchy of Normandy
Count-Bishopric of Beauvais
County of Boulogne

Provence:

Count of Foix
Viscounty of Beziers
Viscounty of Narbonne

Toulouse:

Count of Toulouse
Viscounty of Limoges

Burgundy:

Duke of Burgundy
County of Champagne
County of Brienne
County of Chatillon
County of Forez

Basically I wanted to have the amount of noble houses represented in the French and the noble houses represented in the three vassal states be almost equal so I replaced Dauphin with Boulogne, and added Narbonne to Provence and Forez to Burgundy. It's a little uneven if you count the faction leaders but I think it works overall.

[Slytacular]

I hope this mod gets enough artists to not have to worry about substitution. That picture stretch on the shield does bother me a little bit.

[warman222]

I agree. If there were anyone else that had issues with the UV Maps on the mounted heater shields, I hope this makes you feel better.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Also as you can see I also addressed the texture on the barded horse as well. Here's another screen of that as well.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I should note that I'm just showing a couple examples, pretty all the barded horse and mounted heater shields have been fixed now. So rest assured, I haven't backpedaled.

[Slytacular]

Nice job! Please keep it up, Warman!

[Ardionso]

Wow ! Now the barded horses look much better !

[Linke]

Sweden. I did some research here, but there's not to much information out there, no updated work on swedish medieval armies exists (except osprey books but the ones on Medieval Scandinavia contain a lot of errors and aren't really reliable.)

Anyways at the start of the 13th century Sweden isn't feodal (it will never really become in our timeframe either). There is the king wich is an elected tite from amongst the houses of the stormän (great men, the powerful ruling "nobility").
Most of the contry is under the control of stormän but the villages and farmers are free, not subjects like the peasants of continental Europe. The Odal are wealthy farmers who might employ dozens of drengar ro work their fields. They also can afford good equipment. The Frälsemen roughly correspond to continental knights. They are men who can fulfill the rustjänsten, or are able to arm themselves with armor, helmet, sword and a horse. They aren't really a caste but are recruited from wealthy farmers and former frälsemen. Then the farmers and townspeople form militias wich are conscripted or organized by the farmers themselves. Since the farmers can be wealthier than the continental ones the militias can have better equipment. Like the crossbow, a very common weapon in Sweden until the 16th century, when other states had long abandoned it.
The alsnö stadga from 1280 establishes that only the king is allowed to have a unlimited number of frälsemen fully armed in his service. Bishops are allowed to have 30, other frälsemen 4. This is to limit the power of the stormän.

Suggestions for early units:

Royal Riddare:
these are the most corageus and experienced frälsemen in the kings service. Riddare translate to knight but in truth only the king could dubb people riddare, and those few hundred who existed at any time were very likely in the kings service. These are kind of a elite force, maybe as a generals unit. It should be limited to one or 2 units.

Svennar:
The Svennar are the common frälsemen, de facto they correspond more to continental knights than the riddare. They are allowed to have 4 lower frälsemen in their service and a few might actualy manage that. The standard knight unit, good but expensive.

Småsvennar:
Means "small" svennar. Basicaly younger Svennar with less experience and maybe less armor. I find it likely that they were attached to the real Svennar. They correspond to squires and in Norway they are called armigers in latin. Basicly mounted squires.

Knapare:
Related with german knabe meaning squire roughly. However these are the Frälsemen who can't fully fulfill their rusttjänst. You can take this to mean they can't afford horses and make them a dismounted version of the Svenner. That's the only rather historical way of making dismounted Knights in the early units.

Spear Militia:
Bondir or farmers with spears, leather armors and tunics and shields. A few helmets.

Bowmen Bowmilitia:
Hunters, little armor but some leather maybe.

Axe militia:
If you take this only early, based on axes supposedly being a common weapon in this period. They're like above with axes and shields.

Crossbow Militia:
Like above with Crossbows

Odal Militia Billmen:
Maybe laters period, they have better armors. More helmets and some iron armors.

Odal Militia Spearmen:
above with spears

Odal Militia Crossbowmen:
above with crossbows

Odal militia Swordsmen?.

later, in the 14th century:
German mercenaries like cavalry and infantry, heavy armed.

Swedish crossbowmen, with leather armors and some helmets.

Swedish heavy crossbowmen, with plate iron armor and helmets.

The rest of the units are similar with more modern equipment. For the leather armors in this period you can base them on those from gotland and the battle of visby against Valdemar Atterdag.
This osprey book is worth reading, but use it mostly for unit looks and not for other info and also use try to find other sources: http://users.atw.hu/medievalhouse/Os..._1300-1500.pdf

This isn't a complete list or a 100% accurate one maybe but it gives you the idea of what to work on. Also how the armies were, let us simply repeat: There are frälsemen wich are like knights, then there are militia infantry in great numbers with weapons like bills, axes and crossbows. They are divided into lighter ones wich are free farmers and heavier ones (odal early on) wich get even heavier later. The late ones look very much like the german mercenaries they cooperate with.

[Linke]

Brief Medieval history of Sweden in the mods early time period


At the start of the game in 1212 ad Sweden is ruled by Erik Knutsson, of the house of Erik. That house has for decades been in conflict with the house of Sverker for control of the Swedish Kingship (Wich is elected but do you think they elect a peasant or a member of the lands most powerful family). When Eriks father king Knut I died in 1195 Erik and his three brothers were but children, Thanks to Jarl Birger Brosa a Sverker king, Sverker II was elected (The Jarl was second only to the king, and chosen by him personally). For 8 years Erik and his brothers lived at Sverkers court untill they put forth royal claims for their family, as Sverker didn't cede any power they fled to Norway from whence they returned 2 years later with an army. At the battle of Älgarås
however king Sverker stod victorius and of the four sons of Knut only Erik survived.

However Erik fled once more to Norway and after 3 years he once again marched into Sweden with an army at his back. Sverker was aided by knights sent by the Danish king Valdemar the victorius but Erik's army stod victorius this time. Some attribute fought wthe victory to the fact that the Danish knights fought worse in Snow (The battle was waged in January 1208). After the victory Erik Knutsson was elected king and in a reversal of fortunes Sverker fled to Denmark. In July 1210 Sverker returned just like Erik had done two years earlier, with foreign soldiers behind him. However at the battle of Gestilren Sverker finaly died and the rule of Erik was finaly secure.

As you see both Norway and Denmark seem to have used the dynasties as proxies, the fact is that Sweden was a lot more decentralized than these other kingdoms. In Sweden there were several landskap with their own kings and laws (the msot famous being Västgötalagen). Nobles had little control over the rest of the population and often not beyond their keeps. There wasn't a "modern" European fedual system, the country had no overall authority, or taxation and thus no army. The king had little more power than before he was elected. This wasn't to change until Birger Jarl turned Sweden into a modern centralized (from a medieval European perspective) state.

From 1212 onwards

To repair relations with Denmarks king Valdemar who had supported house Sverker against him Erik married his daughter Rikissa the same year he defeated Sverker. Before his death in 1216 from fever he had 4 daughters, but no sons. His wife however was pregnant when he died and gave birth to his only son, Erik Eriksson nicknamed läspe och halte (list and halt). Things didn't work out well for the house of Erik , Sverker II's son Johan I was elected as king; however he was to rein for only 6 years.

Back in 1216 the pope Innocentius III had sent a letter to king Erik "supporting" him and his claim to sweden aswell as any land conquered from heathens. The letter however reached the court shortly after the kings death, but Johan I seeking papal support for his house and note that of Erik still decided to undertake a crusade to Estonia. The Estonians were at this time raiding the coast of Sweden (a reversal of the viking age) wich added to the benefits of crusading against them, however they had already been formally baptised both by Germans and Danish. The campaign was a failure, the king arrived with his Jarl, Karl Döve, the Bishop of Linköping and perhaps likely around 1000 men. After installing a garrison of possibly 500 men at Lihula he returned back home. However at the ensuing battle of Lihulathe already Christian inhabitants slaughtered the garrison, including the Jarl and the Bishop; few survived.

In 1222 Johan died at Näs, by the pope's wish Erik Knutssons now 6 year old son Erik Eriksson was chosen king. However because of his young age a council ruled, wich included his relative Knut Långe. In 1229 Knut revolted against Erik Eriksson and disposed of him at the battle of Olustra. He was a member of what is called the Folkunga, the Folkunga can best be described as the political opposition of the nobility against the king. The king with the help of the church tried to make the country more centralised but the Folkunga wanted to keep their largely independent status. Erik returned from Danish exile and again became King after Knut Långe died in 1234. As though jarl he had Ulf Fase who had previously been the jarl and ally of Långe; Erik was still in the hands of the nobility. Erik married Katarina Sunesdotter, a member of his former rivals the soon extinct house of Sverker, but they didn't have any children.

Birger Jarl:
Birger Magnusson, commonly known as Birger Jarl was born around 1210 as the youngest son of Magnus Minnesköld, a powerful noble (storman) based around Bjälbo. He worked as a lawman and married king Erik Erikssons sister Ingeborg Eriksdotter in 1237, becoming one of King Eriks few friendly nobles. His family though was already important, the father Magnus Minnesköld was the Lawspeaker in Östergötland and the Bishop of Linköping who died in Johans crusade was his brother Karl Magnusson.
He worked initially as a representative of the king in legal disputes at the periphery of the kingdoms (these regions weren't even part in the kings election). At this time Jarl Ulf Fase was still Eriks closest man. Shortly after in the late 1230s he was sent eastwards to Finland to surpress a rebellion by the Tavastians, a tribe wich had submitted to Swedish authority in the face of Novgorod and their Karelian subjects. The Tavastians had adopted Christianity wich they now abandoned, wich meant the pope declared the campaign against them a crusade. Birger led the Swedish crusaders to victory and built the castle Tavasteborg in their land to deter future rebellions. From Tavastia Birger's victorius army seem to have continued eastwards into Karelia and Russia where he was defeated by Duche Alexander Nevskij of Novgorod in July 1240. However this didn't result in a great loss of status, Birger returned to Sweden armed with both military and legal experience.

Already in 1241 Birger continues to work for the king, now negotiating with king Håkon of Norway. Untill 1247 Birger had been important, but real power had been wielded by Erik Eriksson and Jarl Ulf Fase. In 1247 the Folkunga again revoled against royal authority, Knut Långes son Holmger Knutsson rose up against the throne as one of the Folkunga, he had the farmers of Uppland at his back. The farmers were enraged by new taxes, the Folkunga by the increase of royal authority that the new taxes would mean. At the battle of Sparrsätra the rebels were defeated by Birger on King Eriks behalf. Ulf Fase also died shortly after, possibly for supporting the rebels, this allowed Birger himself to assume the office of Jarl, the kingdoms second most powerful man. Around the same time there was a large and important church meeting at Skänninge, close to Birgers family estate Bjälbo.
Here it is likely that Birger gained papal support, he was never in conflict with the church. They supported his reforms (in a way made them possible) and approved of his crusades.
Now after the elimination of all political resistance Birger Jarl and king Erik could set about creating a nationwide taxation system, first in Uppland wich had revolted at Sparrsätra but it was continued throughout all Sweden. The taxation gave more authority to the king and centralised the kingdom. Birgers power to had emerged strong after the revolt, as seen one year later when the Norwegian king at negotiations in Lödöse suggested his son marry Birgers daughter Rikissa.


In 1250 King Erik Eriksson died childless, birger was in Finland at the time but meanwhile his son Valdemar Birgersson was elected king. However Birger continuing as Jarl now became "de facto" ruler of Sweden. in 1251 the Folkunga revolted a final time at the battle of Herrevadsbro, with the help of mercenaries likely from Germany. The leaders of the revolt were invited to negotiations before the battle, but when they arrived they were seized and murdered in cold blood. Birger emerged victorious against the leaderless army. The following 25 years were to be largely peaceful, something unprecedented in history, this allowed Birger to continue his centralization of the kingdom.

Birgers knew taxes were paid in natural resources like furs and cattle wich he had little use for. In order to sell them he reopened trade with the Northern German cities, for centuries the Baltic had seen little trade after the Swedish journeys into Gardarike stopped; Birgers decision made it possibly for the Hanseatic league to emerge a century later. In Germany Birgers wares were exchanged for coins with wich hired labourers from Germany, and likely mercenaries aswell. At the time Sweden was a undeveloped backwater on the edge of Christian civilization, but with his Germans Birger changed this. They developed the mining industry wich was to become Swedens largest export in the later middle ages, they also at the command of Birger built dozens of new towns and cities, amongst them the new royal seat, Stockholm. Previously there had been very few large settlements in Sweden, Lödöse and Skara being amongst the exceptions. From these new fortified towns the kings emissaries could tax the entire country and ensure that Birgers new laws were followed. Birgers new edesöres laws were applied to the entire kingdom, previously each region had it's own laws. These new laws improved the rights of the people, if one was to rape a woman or rob a church he would be declared an outlaw. He also outlawed the practice of poor farmers selling themselves as slaves aswell as other outdated practices. The people benefited from these and many other new laws, a even price for higher taxation. A real noble and military caste was also created. Anyman who could afford a horse weapons and armor and was willing to sweat an oath of loyalty to the king became a frälseman, excempt from taxes in exchange for military service. Only the king was allowed to have large numbers of them in his service, previously any man wealthy enough would have an army at his disposal.

After his reforms in the 1260s Birger became a cautious statesman, maintaining the peace with Norway and Denmark, in 1266 he died and was buried not in the new capital of Stockholm but close to his hometown in Varnhem church. His reforms had enormous importance for Sweden. He made it a modern Catholic kingdom, and gave this kingdom strong economic, legal, juridical and military systems. Despite his brutality Birger Jarl deserves to be acknowledged as the true founder of Sweden.

Birger Jarl, reconstruction based on contemporary depictions and his skull (wich both match up):

[Slytacular]

Thank you, that post really solidifies the bits of information I've been trying to piece together in my mind!

[Linke]

Good but the odal units aren't 100% accurate, rename them maybe to knekts
i've ordered a new book on this so I can help even more later

[Slytacular]

I like your suggestion for the roster, Linke, but I would like to simplify a unit type which could then become upgraded through the progression of tiers. For tier 1 units, I was thinking about doing an emphasis on the transition from the Ledung system to the Frälsemen system that Birger Jarl introduced. Starter units would include bondir spearmen and bondir axemen (with naval versions on top of snekkes); the Svennar (nobles and their hird because nobles were already present before the reform, but without being dubbed their christian title) would be the only starter mounted unit; I have to look more into the use of crossbows and bows, so I was thinking of just bondir bowmen as the starter unit (with naval version on top of a snekke). The player will be able to unlock the rest of the tier one roster by one or more technologies that represent the reforms of Birger Jarl. Unlockable tier one units include crossbowmen, and the Knapare/men-at-arms (basically armoured swordsmen, but I want to see what you say before I decide the name). I'll look up more information for tier 2 units to represent the transitional period, but I was thinking to upgrade the Svennar to Riddare (or make Riddare a separate shock cavalry and just make an upgraded version of the Svennar), and create an upgraded version of the tier one units that cut off the farmer tags. What do you think, Linke?

[Linke]

With the bondir should they replace the peasant units that all other european factions have or the lighter militias?
I like your idea with the knights. I was thinking a late version of all knightly units and the knekt militias and knapar wich they upgrade to wich has the same name but later equipment. But I didn't say this, even so it's like your system but with different names. Do you agree here: ?

The lower militia units are the same in the entire campaign basicly (correspond to the militias that france and England have).
So are the Bondir unist you mention (correspond to peasants of other Europeans, but there are no peasants in Sweden)
And the knekts (I called them odal earlier) wich correspond roughly in game terms to Sergeants.
The Svenner are the early knight unit, they upgrade into Riddare
The Kings Svenner is the early bodyguard, they upgrade into kings riddare, this is to tier 2 wich is when knights start having a little plate armor like kneepads as well as helmets like bascinet.
The heavy crossbowmen and billmen? are late units with german imported armor like picture below.

And warman or ltd except the osprey book I posted above there is one on 11-1300 nordic and also baltic crusades on the internet, don't follow what they write though, they make lots of misstake like sayigng upplandslaw is actualy a region and not a regional law