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Thread: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

  1. #1

    Default Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    This thread is for discussing/suggesting the gameplay and balance of the unit's statistics and abilities featured in the most up to date build.



    People may post and openly discuss their thoughts and opinions of the units. HOWEVER, this is also the thread to officially propose changes concerning unit balance in order to achieve gameplay satisfaction for you and everyone who plays this mod.



    This is NOT a thread to discuss bugs, aesthetic issues, or errors in script!!!

    For example, this is not acceptable:




    • "The Halberdiers disappear when I zoom out."
    • "The cannon will not fire when I target an enemy."
    • "The mod won't load when I start Attila Total War."
    • "Schiltron Militia needs it's name changed to Pike Militia."


    This is an acceptable example that may be openly discussed:

    "Halberdiers need a nerf. They are too strong in this mod."

    BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT!!!!!!!

    That is not an official proposal to change a unit's statistics and abilities for the mod. An official proposal to change a unit's statistics and abilities must follow the official format as typed below.

    1. The date of the mod version when released.

    2. The unit(s) that is to be changed, and it's faction(s).

    3. What is the proposed change to the unit(s)?

    4. Explain why the change of the unit will benefit and improve gameplay.

    5. Describe the situation. Describe the environment settings if possible. How can somebody else besides you recreate the scenario that resulted in your appeal to change the unit(s)?

    6. (optional) Provide any screenshots or videos of the gameplay that supports the need of the change.
    In this spoiler is an example of the format.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1. The date of the mod version when released.
    5/9/16

    2. The unit(s) that is to be changed, and it's faction(s).
    Atgeir Hirdmen, Kingdom of Sweden

    3. What is the proposed change to the unit(s)?
    More melee damage

    4. Explain why the change of the unit will benefit and improve gameplay.
    The Atgeir Hirdmen should become more effective in melee against heavy cavalry thus their role as anti-cavalry would make more sense.

    5. Describe the situation. Describe the environment settings if possible. How can somebody else besides you recreate the scenario that resulted in your appeal to change the unit(s)?
    It was a one versus one of Sweden versus France. Both armies were entirely 13th century based as agreed upon set rules. The battlefield was sunny on a flat open field with one mountain range on the side of the map. Send French mounted knights on a charge (on flat terrain) to attack Atgeir Hirdmen facing front with the pike wall ability on.

    6. (optional) Provide any screenshots or videos of the gameplay that supports the need of the change.
    Ain't got none.


    Any proposal to change a unit's statistics or abilities will be ignored if it does not follow the format!!!

    This is a thread that requires constructive criticism. I will avoid reading somebody's proposal if they call somebody else an idiot in this thread. Respect others opinion even if what they conjure may seem like the most blabbering idiot thing on the planet.
    Last edited by Slytacular; May 13, 2016 at 02:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    1.The date of the mod version:5/9/16
    2.Horse Archers,Tzarsdom of Bulgaria,Latin Empire,Armenia and so on
    3.Increased Reload Speed,Increased Speed(maybe 150 or 200 for light horse archers and 125 for Heavy Horse Archers because right now light and heavy horse archers have the same speed)
    4.At the moment Horse Archers are worthless.If you buff them Eastern Factions will stand a chance vs even France/England
    5.1v1 Bulgars vs Byzantines.I was shooting for 3-4 minutes at least with my light horse archers at the enemy cav,all got like 10 kills and had at least 70-80% ammo left at the end of the battle
    6. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=675934283

  3. #3
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobi_TWR View Post
    1.The date of the mod version:5/9/16
    2.Horse Archers,Tzarsdom of Bulgaria,Latin Empire,Armenia and so on
    3.Increased Reload Speed,Increased Speed(maybe 150 or 200 for light horse archers and 125 for Heavy Horse Archers because right now light and heavy horse archers have the same speed)
    4.At the moment Horse Archers are worthless.If you buff them Eastern Factions will stand a chance vs even France/England
    5.1v1 Bulgars vs Byzantines.I was shooting for 3-4 minutes at least with my light horse archers at the enemy cav,all got like 10 kills and had at least 70-80% ammo left at the end of the battle
    6. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=675934283
    The version of the mod is a little outdated but i tested HA with a friend and it is the same result

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    Ciruelo's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    I agree with the horse archer reload thing. It's not possible to spend more than 25% ammo (4-5 bolleys) in a 1v1 battle with them, which makes them quite useless. Considering that some factions are supposed to rely on horse archers, I think that it's important to make them more useful by increasing the fire rate. The number of kills will of course depend on many other factors, but the number of shoots is objectively low right now.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    I think those current horse archers are supposed to be tier one. How do they perform against an Early French Knight tier one unit (mounted and foot)? I'll probably do a custom battle of Horse archers versus knights.
    Last edited by Slytacular; May 13, 2016 at 07:46 AM.

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    AlexiosThe1st's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    1.5/9/16 updated version

    2. All spear units with the Shield Wall ability

    3. Increased buff against infantry when in shield wall

    4. Not sure if this is even possible, but instead of the current 10% buff vs infantry that all units with the shield wall ability have perhaps give spear infantry a 15-20% buff. They're already at a fair disadvantage to other sword/axe infantry in a 1v1, however, giving them a greater shield wall buff gives spears a viable tactic when faced with a melee unit. This would reward players with good positioning of their units and would makes spears a reasonable choice in a siege battle to hold choke points.

    5. Spears get mauled in most 1v1's with melee units. I'm not suggesting a change to this general outcome, rather I'm suggesting a reward to a player conscious of unit positioning and stats.

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    Ciruelo's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slytacular View Post
    I think those current horse archers are supposed to be tier one. How do they perform against an Early French Knight tier one unit (mounted and foot)? I'll probably do a custom battle of Horse archers versus knights.
    Why the fact that is early unit makes them only shoot 20% of ammo in a battle? I understand that they should have low armour and low damage... but such a ridiculous low fire rate? It has no sense to me. They can take forever to kill a peasant unit only by shooting them.

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    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexiosThe1st View Post
    1.5/9/16 updated version

    2. All spear units with the Shield Wall ability

    3. Increased buff against infantry when in shield wall

    4. Not sure if this is even possible, but instead of the current 10% buff vs infantry that all units with the shield wall ability have perhaps give spear infantry a 15-20% buff. They're already at a fair disadvantage to other sword/axe infantry in a 1v1, however, giving them a greater shield wall buff gives spears a viable tactic when faced with a melee unit. This would reward players with good positioning of their units and would makes spears a reasonable choice in a siege battle to hold choke points.

    5. Spears get mauled in most 1v1's with melee units. I'm not suggesting a change to this general outcome, rather I'm suggesting a reward to a player conscious of unit positioning and stats.
    I totally disagree swords/axes should deff beat spears and spears should beat cavalry

  9. #9
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    1.Updated Version
    2.Knights and some late era units
    3.Some units like Foot Man at Arms,Nearly all Knights and even Culverins are tier 1
    4.If you balance the tiers it will be possible to play early vs early and late vs late without any confusion

  10. #10

    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciruelo View Post
    Why the fact that is early unit makes them only shoot 20% of ammo in a battle? I understand that they should have low armour and low damage... but such a ridiculous low fire rate? It has no sense to me. They can take forever to kill a peasant unit only by shooting them.
    Whoops, that is the problem of reading things too fast on my cell phone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobi_TWR View Post
    I totally disagree swords/axes should deff beat spears and spears should beat cavalry
    I actually really like the idea of a buffed shield wall for spear units to fight infantry. It gives more of a simulation game feeling rather than a typical RTS game like Age of Empires that has concrete counters for every unit. Spears were a tool to deal with infantry back in the day as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobi_TWR View Post
    1.Updated Version
    2.Knights and some late era units
    3.Some units like Foot Man at Arms,Nearly all Knights and even Culverins are tier 1
    4.If you balance the tiers it will be possible to play early vs early and late vs late without any confusion
    That is a mislabel. Tiers have nothing to do with unit statistics, but it is something worked on.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    I am in the process of making a chart that takes all the stats of the units and gives them a generalized Offense, Defense, and overall score. I sorted the units by price and have the best units and worst units for the price. If your interested I send some of my findings. So far I have Melee Infantry, Spearmen, and Polearms done.

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    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    1.Updated Version(5/9/16)
    2.Melee/Shock Cavalry(All Factions ofc)
    3.Less Health and Less Mass Damage
    4.Regarding Health:Cavalry fights take ages and if you don't have any supporting troops the cavalry fight will take like 4-5 Minutes.
    Regarding Mass Damage:Mass Damage of Cavalry is too OP.The Only inf unit that can survive after a cavalry charge are the Pavisiers.
    5.Here is a screenshot of a Hungarian Knight vs Bulgarian Heavy Spearmen(in shield wall)
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=683585485

  13. #13

    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    1.The date of the mod version:5/9/16
    2.Cavalry, Spears and Melee units of Seljuks of Rum
    3.Must be better stats. If seljuks are cav faction their cav is bad. If infantry it is bad either.
    4.Seljuks of Rum with this stats seems unplayable. I am playing this mod frequently and i didnt see anyone pick seljuks.

  14. #14
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SultansOfSultan View Post
    1.The date of the mod version:5/9/16
    2.Cavalry, Spears and Melee units of Seljuks of Rum
    3.Must be better stats. If seljuks are cav faction their cav is bad. If infantry it is bad either.
    4.Seljuks of Rum with this stats seems unplayable. I am playing this mod frequently and i didnt see anyone pick seljuks.
    In my opinion the Turks need some light cavalry and an elite shock cavalry(when HA is fixed Turks will be pretty good maybe like Parthia in Rome 2)

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    AlexiosThe1st's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobi_TWR View Post
    1.Updated Version(5/9/16)
    2.Melee/Shock Cavalry(All Factions ofc)
    3.Less Health and Less Mass Damage
    4.Regarding Health:Cavalry fights take ages and if you don't have any supporting troops the cavalry fight will take like 4-5 Minutes.
    Regarding Mass Damage:Mass Damage of Cavalry is too OP.The Only inf unit that can survive after a cavalry charge are the Pavisiers.
    5.Here is a screenshot of a Hungarian Knight vs Bulgarian Heavy Spearmen(in shield wall)
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfile.../?id=683585485
    Perhaps the answer is not to nerf cavalry outright, but rather to give spears greater resistance to charges?

    As for the cav fight taking ages, I personally think this is a great game design choice. It allows a faction with less than desirable cavalry to pin men at arms or Hungarian knights until supporting spears can arrive to help. If having plenty of fast, cheap cav and plenty of spears is a viable tactic for beating heavier knights, I think this is a good thing. It gives the game a much greater range of viable strategies and means we don't have a one track meta.

  16. #16
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexiosThe1st View Post
    Perhaps the answer is not to nerf cavalry outright, but rather to give spears greater resistance to charges?

    As for the cav fight taking ages, I personally think this is a great game design choice. It allows a faction with less than desirable cavalry to pin men at arms or Hungarian knights until supporting spears can arrive to help. If having plenty of fast, cheap cav and plenty of spears is a viable tactic for beating heavier knights, I think this is a good thing. It gives the game a much greater range of viable strategies and means we don't have a one track meta.
    I can see your point but a lot of players are annoyed by the super slow cav fights

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    AlexiosThe1st's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobi_TWR View Post
    I can see your point but a lot of players are annoyed by the super slow cav fights
    Well if the cav fight is sped up, the game quickly becomes "who has the better cav". Which is something that I at least don't want this to turn into.

    I just did a fair bit of testing with spears and heavy cav and I agree, spearmen should not be getting wasted on a frontal charge. I had Rus spearmen and Rus heavy spear militia and both were swept away when their cavalry defense ability was active. Again, I don't think the answer is to make cavalry less effective on the charge. I more or less like where they're at, maybe a wee bit of tweaking. I think spears should resist charges more effectively. I would love to see spears more in multiplayer, and I think this (and the suggestion I had above) would help a lot with that. The super heavy infi and heavy cav spam of Medieval 2 was fun and all, but I would love seeing unconventional but effective builds.

  18. #18
    Ciruelo's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    The point is that spears in shieldwall do resist charge very well and that's maybe fair enough. When unbraced, everything is a matter of mass. An unbraced spear unit (no anchored spears on the ground) has no more resistance to charge than any other infantry unit with the same armour as long as they have the same mass. Also, people maybe should start considering that spaghetti line is less effective in this mod than in Rome2, where most players come from in mp battles, and this might be a good thing. The only way to don't die against a charge of cav in this mod is to face it in shield wall or pike formation, the question is: is that intended? Should spears resist charge better than swords when not braced?

    The long cav fights thing has the same original problem: The very basic meta tactic in Rome2 is hold the line with infantry while fighting the flanks with cav and then attack the rear. That's the meta in Rome2 because infantry fights usually last much longer than cav fights. Maybe we should start thinking that Medieval Kingdoms has a different way to work: Cav is broken against infantry? then hold enemy cav with cav, and this will work even if your cav is worse because cav fights last very long.

    The last thing I wanted to point out is that a balanced army (some cav, some infantry, some missile) can't win a spam of knights. There are some builds that can win a spam of nights but they are not balanced and if you don't know that your enemy is bringing a cav spam, you won't be able to win him. I think the mod should encourage bringing balanced builds so this is a point that worth to work on.

  19. #19
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexiosThe1st View Post
    Well if the cav fight is sped up, the game quickly becomes "who has the better cav". Which is something that I at least don't want this to turn into.

    I just did a fair bit of testing with spears and heavy cav and I agree, spearmen should not be getting wasted on a frontal charge. I had Rus spearmen and Rus heavy spear militia and both were swept away when their cavalry defense ability was active. Again, I don't think the answer is to make cavalry less effective on the charge. I more or less like where they're at, maybe a wee bit of tweaking. I think spears should resist charges more effectively. I would love to see spears more in multiplayer, and I think this (and the suggestion I had above) would help a lot with that. The super heavy infi and heavy cav spam of Medieval 2 was fun and all, but I would love seeing unconventional but effective builds.
    What if spears get massive mass buff or expert charge defence buff so that if cavalry charge them the cav will die(a lot of spears don't even have expert charge defence like Bulgarian Heavy Spearmen).And about the slow cav fights i think that it requires less micro and is too easy to destroy knights with terrible cav + spears(bulgarian cav+vlach spears totally destroy man at arms).Just my Opinion tho

  20. #20
    Bobi_TWR's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Official Unit Gameplay Balance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ciruelo View Post
    The point is that spears in shieldwall do resist charge very well and that's maybe fair enough. When unbraced, everything is a matter of mass. An unbraced spear unit (no anchored spears on the ground) has no more resistance to charge than any other infantry unit with the same armour as long as they have the same mass. Also, people maybe should start considering that spaghetti line is less effective in this mod than in Rome2, where most players come from in mp battles, and this might be a good thing. The only way to don't die against a charge of cav in this mod is to face it in shield wall or pike formation, the question is: is that intended? Should spears resist charge better than swords when not braced?

    The long cav fights thing has the same original problem: The very basic meta tactic in Rome2 is hold the line with infantry while fighting the flanks with cav and then attack the rear. That's the meta in Rome2 because infantry fights usually last much longer than cav fights. Maybe we should start thinking that Medieval Kingdoms has a different way to work: Cav is broken against infantry? then hold enemy cav with cav, and this will work even if your cav is worse because cav fights last very long.

    The last thing I wanted to point out is that a balanced army (some cav, some infantry, some missile) can't win a spam of knights. There are some builds that can win a spam of nights but they are not balanced and if you don't know that your enemy is bringing a cav spam, you won't be able to win him. I think the mod should encourage bringing balanced builds so this is a point that worth to work on.
    Valid Points mate

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