Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

[warman222]

So I'm going to be back with my desktop in less than a week and that means I can contribute some time to working on MKTW again. This mod is in a complicated crossroads of sorts. Because we plan to port over to Attila as soon as possible so it's hard to tell how much further I should go right now. Another element of future releases of this mod is to expand the rosters of the mod to around the mid 1300s. I thought I was doing pretty good with balancing the accuracy with liberties. Then I saw the Tsardoms mod preview of Venice and I've gotten the impression that I could be doing better. Some of the stuff I have for Venice is fine but others I'm just unsure if I'm doing it unique enough. So that's why I made this thread. For anyone who is willing to provide insight into roster research for this mod. This will encompass pretty much all the factions planned for the mod for both land AND sea units. I'm not completely changing the rosters but I will be adjusting them as I see fit. For instance, I'm going to change the Arsenalotti unit in the mod with a crossbow version. And to take place of the original unit will be a Lanzelonghe unit, both changes inspired by the Tsardoms roster. I might also add my own version of the Galeotti Oarsmen unit as well for naval battles. Changes like that is what I'm going for. I hope I'm making sense here.

[VINC.XXIII]

I'm happy if its motives you to overhaul your own work, but you need to knows then many units I made for Tsardoms are late ones, which haven't specifically equivalents at this point(1212). Also the equipement was completly different. (different helmets, no brigantines, differents voulges...etc)

I think you could look the reshearch of Bellum Crucis for 13century venetian units. Its very good what they did.
Also...few pictures for a average italian roster that most of italian medieval entities would have used, Venetians can have them as militiamen, but with their own textures:

Note the falchion, flat-top chapel and amount of gambison and the shape of the pavise:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and good year

[BalrogOfMorgoth]

Nice to see you back warman ! Well, do you remember that book I found like way ago ? Didn't it talk about the 12-13th century too ?

[Ltd.]

Indeed, bellum crucis did a very god job on the ialian factions (ofc, all others as well),so yes, definitely worth more than a look. At least for our starting timeframe

Also I myself was absent from modding for quite some time, due to RL issues, but also was waiting for Attila as there are many assets (equipment, armour, weapons, skins and faces and so on) we can use for the mongols, hungarians, cumans etc. It should be a lot easier to reskin the models than to import new models, at least in my experience. Generally I have a good feeling regarding this expansion and the timeframe is also a lot more to my liking than R2.

[warman222]

Indeed I referred to Bellum Crucis a lot for Venice and Castile. I'm considering changing the name of this mod to just Medieval Kingdoms Total War because 1212 AD is nothing more than the starting year and there will be later era units for end game play as well.

[Lord Giovanni]

As a short status update, I will be busy through February studying for a massive, life-defining test, but I will happily return to the mod once it is complete. By March, we'll be able to take stock of where Attila's framework leaves our modding efforts for the campaign. I've been brainstorming in the meantime, though. I propose that we change the models of our lance cavalry (knights, especially), to have the animations of lance cavalry from R2 and Attila, but change the animations so that they will only use one arm to steady the lance when charging. That will leave their other arm free for a shield. I can look into this myself if need be.

As for the mod name, I was actually thinking that we should name our mod something more distinctive than "Medieval Kingdoms", something that really helps capture the timeframe. How does "Age of Honor" sound? I think it really evokes the High Middle Ages (our timeframe), when chivalry was at its height, before the proliferation of firearms and the decline of Europe's knighthood. Really, "Medieval Kingdoms: 1212 AD" was a name that was devised for this mod before it began to take off, before the team took on its current shape.

[Ltd.]

LG, the idea with the couching lance in one hand and shield in the other is ofc very good and would be ideal for the knights, the problem is R2 does not have something similar in animations, so you can just combine animation fragments that are present in the game. Unless ofc warman or someone else manages to create new animations or add them from , say, M2TW.

As for the name: how about combining your ideas and making "Medieval Kingdoms: Age of Honour" having MKAH as an abbreviation ?

[Nikihak]

If you are having Serbia in the mod I could help you with that. (I am not sure if you have it, I read two topics and in one there in Grand Principality of Serbia and in the other one no)

[dogukan]

I can help you somewhat with Turkic rosters in terms of research. I am in a traditional archery club as well and our teacher does a lot of academic research into military history. Though its more about technique and material...but if I come across discussion I'd love to give some input regarding Turkic from Pontic Steppe, Central Asia, Iran to Mamlukes and Rum Seljuks.

[NostalgiaFan]

As for the mod name, I was actually thinking that we should name our mod something more distinctive than "Medieval Kingdoms", something that really helps capture the timeframe. How does "Age of Honor" sound? I think it really evokes the High Middle Ages (our timeframe), when chivalry was at its height, before the proliferation of firearms and the decline of Europe's knighthood. Really, "Medieval Kingdoms: 1212 AD" was a name that was devised for this mod before it began to take off, before the team took on its current shape.

I remember a name like Chivalry Total War being flown around on some other thread or forum somewhere so I think that should be a good name to define your mod

[nnnm]

can help with the Seljuks states (Ayyubids, Rum , Abbasids and Khawarezmians) and Mamluks

[dogukan]

Also, I don't know what you guys are planning, but the new migration system....can you see the potential of that?
There could be provinceless migrationary Turkic-Mongol Central Asian tribes that go around....or for instance many tribes lived on the lands of Seljukids or Pontic Steppe...there are various tribes that did not took leadership but they could have historically speaking. I mean in the end, what made nomads empire was that they had the military and leadership.
After that they mixed with the locals, so military unit wise, they would not require a lot of research, they could be made similar to Turkic factions with lots of cavalry and horse archers(but rather than current Seljukid rosters, there could some more tribal variations, as in civillian and warrior at the same time, rather than the more uniform look) that use AOR troops once they settle somewhere.

I think it would be an über-win if migrations were to be used that way.

There is a whole feature like that coming with Attila, CA does awesome stuff sometimes.

[bobbydobby333]

I could help you guys out with the later roster during the 100 years war. I know a lot about the time and i think i could help a lot.I saw the screen shots you posted back in December and I wasn't impressed with there Armour and stuff.


fyi this mod is awesome, I have been following this form since last June and i cant wait until the final release

[warman222]

I should clarify that I'm not asking for people to join the team as researchers, I'm asking for references and inspiration for the mod's rosters. So whatever pictures or roster ideas you have, this is where you should post the suggestion.

[bobbydobby333]

Well this isn't a roster idea but more of a gameplay suggestion. Part of the reason longbowmen were so important for the English is because they could kill pretty much any mounted knight because the Armour on the horses where weak if they even where wearing armor.They also caused horses to flee the battlefield with there knight still on the horse making knights useless. So it would be really cool if you made mounted knights vulnerable to arrows.

[dogukan]

You've probably covered most but for the Seljukids I can think of;

Palace Army:

Gulaman-ı Saray, members of the directly sultan connected core "hassa" army.

*Ghulam Bodyguards

*Various Ghulam type cavalry : Possibly melee& horse archery combo. It would be good to have a combo of lancer, archery and sabre/mace combo. Does the engine support 3 weapons?
If not, a ghulam lancer/archer and ghulam melee cav/archer would be good two top units

*If it pleases, for the sake of variety, and coolness, elite dismounted Ghulams though I reckon it would be like the knight scenario. Not really necessary unless siege battle. These units seemed well modeled already by Ltd already though. There could be some more variation perhaps.

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Provincial Army: Based on the Iqta system(kind of like feudal system but more bureaucratic than aristocratic. ) Soldiers from this made up the majority of the army and were mainly cavalry. Light to medium. Various tribal horse archers and some more armored ones. I think Ltd has already covered these guys as well but there could be some variation of course.

Iqta Cavalry: Perhaps something more like the "heavy horse archers" in Broken Crescent mod. Depending on the time period and region chainmail and lamellar would be the way to go.

Iqta Infantry: Don't know how historical this would be, but it would not be far fetched addition. Just an infantry version of the cavalry, perhaps armed with spears to fill that gap.
I imagine iqta could look more uniform than tribals below.

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Turkoman Tribes: Like I said in another thread, there were many tribes all over the middle east, central asia and Eurasian Steppes. Depending on relations and their needs, these steppes wandered all over the place. The Seljukids themselves were a major Oghuz tribe, the Kınıks. As it happen with all semi-nomadic empires, what made the Seljukid empire seljukid was their dominance over others. Still, major tribes roamed the lands and sometimes were in conflict with central authority. Nonetheless, Turkmens were a major force of Turkic states, especially Seljukids and later Ottomans(themselves, originally a Turkoman tribe of Oghuz, the Kayı)
There could be various tribesman, mostly made up of light horse archers with sabres and maces. These units are also somewhat covered but they are too "uniform"...Turkomans can be represented more with their "daily" clothing rather than the Seljukid type kaftans.

-Turkoman Raiders (if needed, specific tribes could be seperated depending on sources) , depending on the capabilities of the engine they could have lances and sabre/maces. If they cant have 3 weapons, there could be 2 version; lancer archer and swordsman-archer. They would have no protection at all to light leather protection.

-Turkoman Nobles(again, it could be tribe specific as each tribe would have their own flag and depending on what region they originate from, their own clothing.
If it comes to that, I can research the tribes that lived under Seljukids in the time period and their clothing.
Nobles can have heavier and better weaponry as well as leather to chainmail or scale armor covered with their tribal kaftans. These aesthetic works should not be disregarded as they were visually important for these people

-Possible Javelin version

If there is an infantry need, these units could also be made into infantry. But I doubt Turkmens would fight on foot.

The bonus of Turkomans is that they could be included into
-Byzantines
-Ayyubids-Mamelukes
-Georgians
-Khwarezm
-Mongols
-Abbasids
The current Turkomans I saw in Byzantine army for instance is simply too uniform and ugly representation. These units could be really simple and yet special.

There could be similar units north of Black Sea but there are some distinctiual differences between Islamized Oghuz Turks and Non-Muslims Kypchak-Cumans

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Vassals and others: Such as non-iqta aristocrats, Kurds, Armenians, Georgians, Arab tribes, Caucasian tribes I would recommend more of an AOR system or Mercs for these guys though rather than faction specific models.


-Kurdish cavalry(we know for sure they were important in battle of manzikert to Seljukids)
-Kurdish tribesmen

I don't exactly know how Armenians and Georgians would be drafted or even if they ever did but it seems likely, I can look up for it in detail if needed.

-Arab tribesman
-Caucasian tribesman

The tribesman can also be divided into lower class and nobility to differentiate armor.

How to arm and cloth them would depend on some archaeological research and time period. The Seljukid relation to Kurds might have been different from that of Rûm Seljukids.
Infantry in the army would more likely be non-Turkic guys but to confirm that I would have to do research.



All this being said, I did not really put up much original stuff and these are largely covered in Osprey series, 1257 ad and Broken Crescent mod. There could be some more variation perhaps, and it would be good to get rid of "faction colour" thingy. My insistence however, for Khwarezm and Seljukids would be larger depth and variation to Turkomans, maybe you could go into tribal specifics even. There could be one type of mixture of clothes/armor but a large mixture then assigned to different roles from infantry to mostly horse archer. Noble and tribesman would make the armor difference.



My friend has a book on clothing and hairstyles in Seljukid period. I could go through it. In the games so far, typical tribesman is shown as this(with colour variations):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ltd has done an amazing job on these guys. I am not really sure but I feel like this kind of tribesman is very -specific-. Turkomans could look less uniform than this...although not 100& accurate, in two different tv productions Turkomans that deal with similar era are presented them this way:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

a much older production also has some great insight to nomadic pastoralist Turkmen life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ7S3SN0bSI
Skim through the scenes(at around the 1st hour of the movie, there is a battle scene with the Romans though Romans look wildly inaccurate), check the clothing in this movie. These are more simply Turkomans, the ancestors of the Ottomans. Its a bit later period, but I reckon a lot of Anatolian tribesman looked like this into the late 13th century. White shirts, clothes made up of wool.

My point isn't that the Seljukid blue kaftan tribesmen is wrong, but rather that they are very specific. Were they part of the Iqta army or were they the dominating Kınık tribesman? Were all Turkmen tribes that were under Seljukids but were not direct part of the "state" looking like this?
These are the question that needs to be looked into...if you guys plan something along the lines I am saying, I could do some research on it...So far, 1257 and BC has done an amazing job covering this, my concern is more with fleshing out the Turkomans and making them a factor in multiple factions and more so in Seljukids...like various different tribes.
Here is a list of tribes:


As you can see, Kınık(Seljukids) and Kayı(Ottomans) are just but a few of many.

[Ltd.]

The units in my middle eastern unit preview were not finalized neither in their appearance nor in the number of units. There is indeed a lot more to do, but atm I am waiting for Attila, I have seen a lot of interesting stuff that can be used for the hungarians, mongols, cumans, also middle east, lots of new faces, armour, horse armour etc.
Your list is very good and will be taken into consideration.
Also my girlfriend is watching turkish series once in a while (dubbed or with subtitles ofc ), maybe I can glance at them, though with these modern series and movies I am rather unconvinced as to their authenticity.
Also, 3 weapons is possible, so lance, bow and 1h weapon or spear/shield, bow, 1h weapon.

[warman222]

I agree with using assets from Attila to help us out. Also I think we could use the saxon body armor and shield models(the ones that are strapped to their backs) as a base with a simple retexture. In the mean time I'm using Rome 2 assets and the new stuff from your latest pack and other osp stuff we hadn't used yet. When Attila comes out we'll implement what is usable from Attila. I'll send you what latest changes I've done to you once Attila comes out. And whatever else we can't replace I have Grudge on stand by to help fill the gaps.

[dogukan]

I found this book, I reckon I'll buy it. Its a 400 page academic piece on Seljukid armies and probably has detail about other Turkic states.
When you get into it, I'll let you know if I come across new archaeological evidence on what soldiers looked like...perhaps a more accurate roster with exact names could be found in this book.

[Ltd.]

Yes, sounds good.
I have seen in one of the official faction previews I think , in a video, a horse cart and if that does make it into the game and is not just for show, then that could serve as some kind of wagon fort if or some kind of supply wagon , as in making armies not 20 but 30 units and some units could be then responsible for provison / arrows / food / horses /camp, maybe through some scripts armies having such commodities in their inventory have more arrows, better morale, if destroyed or raided , a morale drop.... or sthg along those lines.
Also I can`t wait to see how the crossbws work in game, what animation they have, then replace them with heavier crossbows, and with your pavise deployables, they shoud be good to go for the crossbow-heavy italian factions.