Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread

[tryadelion]

The house of Barcelona kings ( Alfons II, Pere III, Jaume I, Jaume II..... Pere IV.... Marti I) prefered to be called by either their occitan/catalan or their latin names, castillian wasn't really a thing in the aragonese crown at that time.

[Slytacular]

Thank you dogukan!

Trydelion, is there any specific or Iberian versions of coat of plates or brigandine? I would like to see more pictures of your reenactment stuff!

[+Marius+]

Trydelion, is there any specific or Iberian versions of coat of plates or brigandine? I would like to see more pictures of your reenactment stuff!

Well, in Spain, earlier versions are depicted as having Roman styled leather skirts, this is from 1291;
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...43-2_large.jpg

Similar to this Italian construction;
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...cdc874d04c.jpg

From the same manuscript, appears to look rather like improvised scale(the sleeves tip it off), still undefined;

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/medi...-1_gallery.jpg


This Spanish mercenary has a sleeveless one;

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...03bd312e15.jpg

while this one, has sleeves(also allegedly Iberian but the image is not from Spain);

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...c3282b6a9d.jpg

This image pictures obvious personal tastes and differences in armor, from the archer officer to the men at arms left and right of him;

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...8c6ec007e6.jpg

Again, notice the difference in shoulder protection and how the archer had to sacrifice it for arm mobility(so he can draw and shoot his bow without issue).

Now these are 100% Spaniards/Portugese(loads of brigandines on them btw);

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...5ee62356ec.jpg
http://www.flandesenhispania.org/ima...astrana/01.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6-dus3MkJ0...agarde+032.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Uu2hQfjlvn...0/DSC_2939.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Dr-9NAiWef...0/DSC_2945.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xJTLOourX3...0/DSC_2942.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y_0idP3btb...0/DSC_2944.jpg

They really loved color and flashy decorations apparently

You can see even more on the Pastrana tapestries.

[Danishmend]

• 
  
  • 
    
    
  • tribal units
    
    • Turkomans
      
      • Turkoman (light cavalry)
      • Turkoman Tabalkhanah (armored cavalry)
      
      
    • Bedouins
      
      • Bedouins (light cavalry - javelin)
      • Bedouins Ashraf (medium infantry and cavalry - javalin)
      
      
    • Berber
      
      • Berber (light infantry and cavalry - javalin)
      • Berber Ashraf (medium Inf and cavalry - javalin)
      
      
    • Kurds
      
      • Fursan Akrad (heavy cav)
      • Ashraf Akrad (heavy can inf)
      • Jund Akrad (inf)

What the hell are Berbers and Bedouins doing in Seljuk armies? I mean, Berber and Bedouin tribesmen in Anatolia and Iranian plateau, for real? Glad you are not developing this mod.

[nnnm]

those are tribal regional AOR units that I think they should be available to any Islamic factions that have hold of any of those AOR units regions. and ur info is totally wrong ... and ur info is totally wrong they didn't had nationalities back then dude. for example the castle Jund (Duzdarriyah) in Aleppo in Taj Ad'Dawlah Tutsh time were mostly Berber (Magharibah). Sultan Mas'Auud of Iraq had Beduins Arabs in his army. Atabeg MuEeen Ed'Deen of Damascus had Arabs like Ibn MunQith from shaizar north of Aleppo and he continue to server the Zangids then Ayubbids.

[Påsan]

Would not poleaxes and similar pole weapons be the choice of arms for late era dismounted men at arms and knights? Shields were in the process of being phased out due to the heavy armor and the poleaxes were there to counter the armor.

[Danishmend]

those are tribal regional AOR units that I think they should be available to any Islamic factions that have hold of any of those AOR units regions. and ur info is totally wrong ... and ur info is totally wrong they didn't had nationalities back then dude. for example the castle Jund (Duzdarriyah) in Aleppo in Taj Ad'Dawlah Tutsh time were mostly Berber (Magharibah). Sultan Mas'Auud of Iraq had Beduins Arabs in his army. Atabeg MuEeen Ed'Deen of Damascus had Arabs like Ibn MunQith from shaizar north of Aleppo and he continue to server the Zangids then Ayubbids.

The Seljuk armies were not fighting tribal hordes indeed, but the bulk of the army were tribal Turks, and the core was professional Ghulams. There were regional auxiliary forces (Dailamite, Khorasanian, Kurdish, Roman, Arab, Georgian etc.) in some campaigns (and even Frankish mercenaries in some battles) but their role in Seljuk armies was temporary. Ghulams and tribal Turks on the other hand were always there.

As for Berber tribal/regional units, in which region should they be available? I mean, which regions in West Asia/Middle East had Berber tribes? Adding them as tribal/regional units for Seljuks is nothing but fantasy. Why not add them as mercenaries in some medittereanean regions? The presence of Dailamite infantry in Seljuk armies is well recorded for example, but I can't see them in your list for some reason?
As far as I can remember you also want tribal Turkish units to be AOR units for Seljuks. I hope that's not gonna happen.

[achilles-91]

I hope we see khwarezm units soon.

[Ciruelo]

Order Knights in Spain

*Santiago and Alcantara belonged to Leon kingdom
*Calatrava was Castillan
*Montesa belonged to kingdom of Aragon

[Kjertesvein]

@Linke

I have no idea to what extent this mod wants to be in according to history, that's up to you offcourse. I know the map is strange, and there is nothing that can be done with that, but as far as I know...

Scandinavia:
Kingdom of Sweden

...didn't exist. There was no such thing. It's like calling Rome in 250 BC for Roman Empire. It wasn't there. If a political entity includes

a central power
a standing army
an active foreign policy
being mutually accepted by it's neighbors

then you'll have to wait until early 16th century for Kingdom of Sweden to resemble an independent sovereign state. The landmass of what is today Sweden and Finland consisted of different political entities. The Geats faction on the Attila map was still encompassing a tribe of the people Geats, one of the political entities of Scandinavia. Today's Sweden/Finns can loosely be separated into the tribes of:

Geats
Swedes
Finns
(Gautes, i.e. people of the island of Gotland)

Only the first one actually own landmass on the campaign map. Kingdom of Sweden didn't exist, but Geats people did.

Hear me out on this, Scandinavia consisted of two strong medieval kingdoms that affected and had an impact on their neighboring states, and a few minor tribes that did not. Medieval Scandinavia included Kingdom of Denmark, Kingdom of Norway and the tribes of Geats, Swedes and Finns. The two former fulfilled all the criteria listed above as being strong states, uncontested by pretenders, waging war and diplomacy to states abroad such as Scotland, France and England. Any semblance of early conceptualization of medieval "Kingdom of Sweden" did not filled those criteria listed above. If you choose not to have Kingdom of Norway be represented in any way, but have the Geats/Kingdom of Sweden, then fine. Your choice, your mod. However, it's very strange to represent a minor player and leave out a much more impactful faction right next to it. It's like you included Isle of Man into your mod, but Kingdom of Scotland is nowhere to be found. To include a minor tribe, but not the major faction right next to it, it doesn't make any sense from my point of view and also creates unhealthy game play balance.

Fun facts:

The geographical area of Hrefnesholt (the town) in Attila is part of what was later the most fortified Norwegian county, Bohuslen (1030-1650). It consisted of Bohus fortress, Ragnhildsholmen fortress, Konghelle town to name the most important ones. Here is a rough map between the medieval entities (not including their colonies). One of the most important Swedish towns, Lödöse, paid tributary taxes to Bohus all the way to 1473.

How you can represent the medieval powerhouses of what is today Sweden and Norway is up for debate. There are many interesting starting positions, faction traits, emerging factions and scenarios available, but for now I just want to declare that Kingdom of Sweden as I think is about to be created for your mod is wrong if not a strange modern construct.

Thoughts?

~Wille

[Linke]

I know it can't be called a centralised kingdom but after 1250 it certainly transforms to equal other European powers, at the start of the game it consists of a weak royal authority based on a few estates but virtualy no castles to tax the people from and thus no army. But the king exists surely and is able to do expeditions eastwards, albeit his position to so is not as dependant on his lineage as his personal strenght. The kingship itself is elected so it makes sense for the king to be a warlike noble (a misleading word for this period).

I know Norway deserves more to be playable and that the coast was Norwegian (even visited this summer and went to local history museum), only around 1250 did Sweden gain a small part of it. But it is elsewhise very hard to fit the Norwegian faction into the rest of south Sweden. In my opinion Norway should have a horde faction (see earlier posts) in Sweden

hoe ca depicted Hrefnesholt anyways is abmyssal, creating these problems. First it's a legendary fortress from Beowulf, not a city, Denmark should have the capital of the province. Second it's location is largely hypothetical, it was put there simply to make Geats more likely to raid Romans (unheard of btw). In reality geatish and later Swedish were based largely in the center of the current regions around lakes Vänern, Vättern and later Mälaren, and anyhow Hrefnesholt was more likely in Jutland or Gotland.

[Hater01]

Is this alredy out?
Where can I download it?
Are these people still working on it?

[Bat'ko Hmel']

Is this alredy out?
Where can I download it?
Are these people still working on it?

yes, they are still working on it

[Kjertesvein]

I know it can't be called a centralised kingdom but after 1250 it certainly transforms to equal other European powers, at the start of the game it consists of a weak royal authority based on a few estates but virtualy no castles to tax the people from and thus no army. But the king exists surely and is able to do expeditions eastwards, albeit his position to so is not as dependant on his lineage as his personal strenght. The kingship itself is elected so it makes sense for the king to be a warlike noble (a misleading word for this period).

To some degree, yes when talk about internal authority of the king it begins in the 13th century, while mid 14th century is more similar to contemporary continental powers. We can see the king levy taxes and exempt people around 1267, being the one to give privileges, specially the church (as a way of solidifying Pope as an ally, and in return for legitimacy). It's only after 1300s we see the king issuing protection letters, securing people's property with arms. There also seems to be a distinct lack of fines being confiscated by the king ( as opposed to all other European monarchs) until after 1300s.


However, by 1350 we can see that the court is attributed under the king and his direct judgement (magnus eriksson). The king would here act as judge, holding a monopoly on violence. Prior to this, the king held an advisory position, while the local government held final say in judicial matters. There is no exact date due to scarcity of sources, but we can say there is a build-up period starting in the 1200s. We can be more sure after 1300, while 1350 mark internal authority of the king as a judge as solidified.


These dates are from Kunglig Auktoritet i Det Medeltida Sverige Före 1280 the book Statsutvikling i Skandinavia i Middelalderen (Sverre Bagge, Michael H. Gelting, Frode Hervik, Thomas Lindkvist and Bjørn Poulsen)


However, to say that Sweden is a Kingdom on par with other European powers for the greater part of the middle ages is to go a tad bit too far in my opinion. To quote Raymond Johansen's Ma, The Political Impact of Crusader Ideology in Sweden 1150 - 1350 "... the absolute power of the king did not exist even in theory and his influence largely depended on the support of his peers..."; "power is one thing, legitimacy another. Kings had come and gone, usually in violent ways such as with King Eric XI, telling us that the legitimacy on which their power rested was constantly held in doubt, challenged and often undermined. The position of the kings was therefore anything but unassailable, on the contrary it seems to have been far too fragile for them to risk unpopularity by forcing reforms on society on the same scale as Birger did." (p. 40).

How you're going to balance the faction to not be OP seems to me a challenge in itself, stability of a faction is often not that hard to achieve in Total War, but I'm sure you'll figure it out.

I know Norway deserves more to be playable and that the coast was Norwegian (even visited this summer and went to local history museum), only around 1250 did Sweden gain a small part of it. But it is elsewhise very hard to fit the Norwegian faction into the rest of south Sweden. In my opinion Norway should have a horde faction (see earlier posts) in Sweden


hoe ca depicted Hrefnesholt anyways is abmyssal, creating these problems. First it's a legendary fortress from Beowulf, not a city, Denmark should have the capital of the province. Second it's location is largely hypothetical, it was put there simply to make Geats more likely to raid Romans (unheard of btw). In reality geatish and later Swedish were based largely in the center of the current regions around lakes Vänern, Vättern and later Mälaren, and anyhow Hrefnesholt was more likely in Jutland or Gotland.

I'm sorry, but I seem to have problem locating the post regarding your opinion that Norway should be a horde faction in Sweden.

I'm not sure what kind of backstory you would potentially be using, but at the time of 1212 Norway was split between the warring parties of (Bagler) Philip Simonsson controlling eastern Norway and (Birkebeiner) Inge II controlling the rest, but also Bohuslen. Haakon IV, heir of the throne of Norway was 8 years old. Philip and Inge dies in 1217. 1225 Haakon IV goes into Värmland to punish peasants who try to help the (Ribbungene) rebel leader Sigurd Ribbung, who were backed by Swedish nobles. Tension grows. In turn, Norway backed Sverker clan for the Swedish throne. In 1240s Haakon IV aimed his target towards Halland and Skåne, by which he sought peace with Jarl Birger to unite against the Danes. His fleet counted at 300 ships and the military reached a peak in size. 1256, war in Halland and Skåne begun. Casus Belli was reprisal for Norwegian ships being attacked years before by the Danes.


~Wille

[Slytacular]

Well, the political situation in this mod starts and leaves off of 1212 Anno Domini, and I don't think this mod is going to reflect the political situation (mostly) that happens after 1212 because the role of the player is to create his/her own version of what is to happen by attempting to build an empire alike to every typical total war game objective. For Sweden, there are also sources that say Birger Jarl was the reason Sweden became a European power because of the reforms, but it was consistently getting challenged by the Folkung party for territory. If its more correct to call the Kingdom of Sweden as the Kingdom of Svealand, that name change could work. I would want to add Norway as a faction in the game, but the Scandinavian region is very limited of campaign space in Attila Total War that makes it difficult to do so in a way that makes sense.

[Linke]

You could try to do the other way around and have a Swedish horde factions, wich would be very strange of course. TBH the easiest way to do it is probably to omit Sweden entirely and have it as an emergent faction since anyways we don't have Näs (capital/centre of royal authority) and the real Swedish regions nor Finland nor Novgorod wich might make playing Sweden seem a bit pointless. If only Gotland was a region it could have been an interesting faction as well.

It wouldn't be correct to call Sweden kingdom of Svealand, nor kingdom of the Swedes nor Geats. Those are tribal names (we think) wich based on the sources change meaning enormously much since their first mention by Tacitus. Swedes appear at times as including the Geats (13th century laws say only the Swedes have the right to elect king, wich would be strange if Swedes signified people in Svealand when the kings seats of power and origins were in Götaland). Other times they are mentioned as opponents like in Beowulf (wich likely got very little right). In my opinion Swedes signifies at times all people in aproximately modern Sweden (maybe Denmark aswell judging by Tacitus) and at times a subdivision of these, a smaller tribe based around Mälaren whose name derives from the same source and gets intermixed now and then. Anyhow it shouldn't be called Svealand as that's first used in the 15th century if I recall correctly. If you have them as a emergent faction they could be called Sweden or Swedes (maybe Swedes changes into sweden by scripting at 1250s)

[Slytacular]

Well I've already started working on a Swedish unit roster, so its kinda too late to back out now. Every faction already has a weird set up based on how the campaign map for the Attila plays out, so why not Sweden too?

[Linke]

Good luck with whatever approach you do (swedish/norwegian hordes or settled), this is based on a few online maps and maps in Jarlens Sekel by Dick Harrison.

[Kjertesvein]

@Linke
That's a nice map.

@Slytacular
I'm sure Scandinavia will be just fine, I'm just worried the game will turn out with a Swedish Empire before 1224 due to easy starting position and not having decent amount of competitors, game-play. But also historical, it's like you have a mod that includes the First Bulgarian Empire, but leave out any notion of the Byzantine Empire. They would bounce at each other, harbor pretenders, form alliances and wage war. You can only add so many debuffs in the faction traits, the player will inevitably supersede what even negatives they start with and expand fairly quickly unless the player have to overcome a hard solid stack of units threatening it's existence. BTW all the Swedish/Norwegian units are more or less interchangeable in case you (or potential mini mods) decide to do what CA did and reskin units ^{and sell it as DLC. LOL.} For both game play and historical reasons, I highly suggest medieval Scandinavia need Norway, Sweden and Denmark in some form or another (horde, settled).

And lastly, I can't regurgitate enough how much I respect what ever decisions you and and MKTW decide to do. I understand time is a resource and I'm happy with what ever choice you choose to do.

~Wille

[Froll]

I'll post this here for I can't find a proper theme on the forum. Do you still need any help? I'm an 2D artist. Texture, art, icons, anything. I would be glad to take part in this awesome project.