Now I wrote Everything I found about the Volga Bulgars in the 12-13th Century so this is from me. I updated the main post Above with the Historical Stuff.I will be glad if this helped you guys.
its not Fantasy.Well Documented Stuff. In the 8th Century the Arabs were writing that they needed 10 Arabs to defeat 1 Bulgarian because of his skills. the probably closest name of this tradition was something like "Bu Vei" .In the ''Barbarian invasions'' Mod For Attila - I named the Final most Elite sword unit ''Bu Vei Masters'' but with normal Vanilla Attila stats. This Tradition as with the Female warriors died out with the fall of the First Bulgarian Empire in the Balkans,bot in Volga Bulgaria there were no catastrophes like this until the arrival of the mongols in the 13th Century.So its your free choice when the opportunity presents for each modder and to use it in his mod.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Medieval Byzantine painting from the 9th-10th century with Bulgarian Warrior.
And that Guy in the Video is Minister in the Government in Modern Bulgaria - Twice inthe past.So he cant talk idiotic stuff like an total idiot. And he is one of the Highest respected historians in Bulgaria for at least 30 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozhidar_Dimitrov
That video is very interesting.
but I would suggest using direct academic sources to provide your background information over documentaries. I can find a documentary on youtube to support basically anything, and considering the documentary is in Bulgarian, narrated by a Bulgarian minister, and that he thinks the Bulgarians taught the Chinese Gongfu while in Balhara[26:00] I have little reason to see this as anything other than nationalistic history, and unreliable.
I admittedly don't know much about that part of European history, but I can tell immediately that the source is very biased.
Last edited by Dontfearme22; January 16, 2016 at 11:55 AM.
Hi, I'm curious about this so I hope you don't mind me asking what primary sources do we have?
I also have specific questions regarding the other claims you made in the post above.
Historical Info About the Female Warriors in the 12-13th Century for Volga Bulgaria.
The Legend of Princess Altynchech of Volga Bulgaria is a bit murky because over the last 800 years is filled with Legendary and Mythological Stuff about her and I will try as much to post what is confirmed about Her. Now She was the most known Woman warrior of Sunni Islamic Volga Bulgaria,but she wasnt the only 1.There were others also were like her. (Who?) It was also Common in that Time the Women to be even Governing local regions in Volga Bulgaria and with the Cummans the Women still practiced the old Scytian,Sarmatian traditions about women going to war. (Was this common?) Only after going back from War the women of Volga Bulgaria and the Cummans could marry and have a family. Also in the Siege of the capital of Volga Bulgaria Bilär - the last stronghold - the Hightest Tower in the city was held for 40 women for 3 days against the Mongol invaders (Source?).
From What Im reading from academic Russian sources (Source?) the Historians from Tatarstan She was like Joan of Arc for France but for Volga Bulgaria. Altynchech means ''The Golden-haired''.She was a Bulgarian princess, who lived in the late 12th century and early 13th century in the Volga Bulgaria, the daughter of the Volga Bulgarian ruler Jelal-ed-Din Altanbek Allen.Her father Died in 1236ad.Her Husband Bachman (Dont know if I wrote it right because I was listening an Audio Interview) was a Volga Bulgarian Noble who had blood line with the Cummans.She was active Bulgarian participant in the Mongol invasions of Volga Bulgaria. She commanded the elite Bulgarian 15 000 Guards Corps(Source?)- men and women in battle (Source?). In the Siege of Bilär in 1236 only her Elite warriors broke out of the Siege of the 250 000 big city( who was doomed to be razed to the Ground) and escaped to Bandja(the city was just around Modern Samara in the local woods).Her Father - the Ruler of Volga Bulgaria Died in the Siege of Bilär.Bandja was then besieged from the Mongols and her Forces broke out again,but her Husband died in the Battle.After the Battle she escaped to the Ural mountains to the East and from here her historically confirmed goes into the Local Myths. In the Legends for Her she was wounded and with the Help of other Bulgarian Nobles she was hiding from the Mongols.The Legends of Volga Bulgarians today says that She was hiding somewhere in the Ural caves,from where she will always keep the Bulgarian land and Bulgarian people safe.
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
No, it is not well documented.
It is basically just a couple of sidelined Bulgarian historians stating stuff without providing primary sources.
Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS
In the 8th Century the Arabs were writing that they needed 10 Arabs to defeat 1 Bulgarian because of his skills. the probably closest name of this tradition was something like "Bu Vei" .
State a primary source for that.
When making bold claims and statements you need to provide actual proof, not "he said" "it is stated" etc.
Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS
And that Guy in the Video is Minister in the Government in Modern Bulgaria - Twice inthe past.So he cant talk idiotic stuff like an total idiot. And he is one of the Highest respected historians in Bulgaria for at least 30 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozhidar_Dimitrov
That video is utter nonsense and that man presenting(regardless of his degree and status) is a charlatan.
What he stated about straight swords in his comparison of them with curved swords is just utterly idiotic.
He knows nothing of historical weapons usage.
Also, that is a youtube video, provide an actual primary source or else it is nothing but Bulgarian pseudohistory promoted by sensationalistic Bulgarian historians.
Originally Posted by finix
Now that something is not in the internet and in the priceless collection of manuscripts does not mean they do not exist and this is fantasy!
True, but until actual information is provided, it is nothing but fantasy and vague declarative statements.
Originally Posted by finix
It is absurd to make fun of a leading historian, regardless of any nationality. This means that you are also a leading historian, in which I doubt it!
It is not absurd, critique and review of information is the essence of historiography, regardless of who is doing it.
His statements about straight swords are absurd and comically stupid.
The Balkans are filled up with "leading" historians promoting complete misinformation and lies for the sake of nationalism and historical sensation.
I am from Croatia and I have many contacts with Serbia, I have been around such vultures all my life.
Last edited by +Marius+; January 16, 2016 at 02:15 PM.
https://www.facebook.com/bulat.gilvanov
The Facebook profile of Bulat Gilvanov,who is born in Volga Bulgaria, modern Tatarstan,Russia. He knows the Subject better than me.And Looking At his Facebook he works at the Creative workshop of painting of the Russian Academy of Fine Arts in the city of Kazan. And in the image above in his Profile - it Writes Ministry of Culture of Republic of Tatarstan,National Cultural Centre "Kazan". Kazan is the Capital of Tatarstan.
This 1 easy Google search about the Female Warriors of Volga Bulgaria and a Good round of of the local Legends about the subject. http://amazonky.livejournal.com/52812.html
This what Google translate Says.I Just Read in the Link that The legend of Altynchech also became a story with the same name in a Opera work, which was designed by the famous Kazan artists Peter Speranski.If you Got Better Russian Tell me. From here you guys Dig Deeper. Im not obligated by anybody to find what you needed. just find the rest for yourself.I dont have the time for more.Thats it. GL HF.
Altynchech - Goldilocks
January 3, 2013
Altynchech - golden hair; with golden hair, Goldilocks. In the historical legends: the name of the daughter of the Bulgarian Khan. Name Altynchech widespread among the Mari. Synonym: Zarbanu. The legends about the girls warrior-daughter of the Bulgarian Khan is often beautiful name Altynchech. In one legend, pursued by enemies, she brick itself, and all the treasures of the khan's treasury in a cave. She did not die and still guards the entrance to the cave. Her return is linked in the popular mind with the revival of the Bulgarian lands. Altynchech image - a symbol of unbending will of the people and a symbol of hope for the revival. Altynchech image is one of the finest jewels in the treasury of folk culture.
There are numerous traditions in praise of the nobility, sacrifice, devotion and beauty of Bulgarian women. These legends of women - the soldiers are fighting against foreign invaders seeking to enslave their own country. Almost all the legends on this subject appears Tamerlane, who lived in the 14th century, and destroy all of Central Asia and the Volga region, but most of them rooted in the period of struggle of Bulgaria with the Mongol invasion in the 13th century, and the name of Timur is the result of a later change.
After the defeat Bulgar city Tamerlane, according to the legend "Forty girls" are led by the daughter of the Bulgarian king, dressed in military clothes and armor, went to Bilyar and steel to protect the city. When I came Timur the Lame, they died fighting with the enemies. There they were buried, and the burial place of these girls - warriors is now called "Kyzlar Ziarat '(maiden cemetery). Another legend says that in the town of Bulgar Marjan lived 12 beautiful and intelligent girls. When there was a war for Bilyar, loudly cursing enemies and thereby weaken their power. The daughter of the Bulgarian king with twelve girls staged a trap enemies. But forces were unequal. Fleeing from enemies they rode fast horses in the town of Marjan. But Marjan and the city was destroyed and reduced to ashes. Enemies captured 12 girls and forced them to build a mountain near Bilyar. Enemies wanted to bury them alive on top of this mountain. But then 12 girls turned 12 stars and ascended into the sky. Beautiful legend of Bulgarian princess written from the words of the old-timer A. Ahunzyanova village Shemardan Sabinsky area. Bilyar Abdullah Khan - said it - the capture of the town of Bulgar Tamerlane with his children, his wife and close relatives secluded in one of the stone buildings of the capital. Conqueror ordered to fill the building with logs and set fire to it. All Hide killed except the youngest daughter of Khan, considered the most beautiful and intelligent girl in the city. She managed to get out through a hole in the roof of the building. Timur, when he saw her in a white robe, bravely facing the flames, was struck by the courage, determination and extraordinary beauty of the girl, and immediately ordered to put out the fire. When the noise of the fire died down, he publicly stated that it will make a major and his wife and that she would decorate his tent. But the princess said that soon threw down his head, you agree to become the wife of the conqueror and murderer. Furious Tamerlan ordered to bring him her two brothers, captured and sentenced to death. The daughter of the Bulgarian Khan, saw the brothers in the stocks on the neck, very pale, and cried to the conqueror, that she agreed to become his wife if he is in her eyes let the brothers on freedom and give them the best horses. Timur, who wanted at any price has become master of beauty and lost her mind immediately freed the captives and himself led him to two fast horses. Bulgarian princes took off on them and throwing a farewell glance at the younger sister disappeared from sight. The daughter of the Bulgarian Khan rushed upside down on the dying logs. Two brothers of her commute to the northern regions of Bulgaria and on the banks of the river Kazanka founded the city of Kazan. The table legend later poured into the legend "Yanmy Torgan Kiz" (a girl who is not lit) and the legend of the Kazan queen Syuyumbike that allegedly committed suicide, jumping from the tower after the capture of Kazan by the troops of Ivan the Terrible. In 1222, the Mongolian army first attacked the Volga Bulgaria. Bulgars repulsed the attack invaders, but in subsequent years, hiking on the Volga State renewed several times - as long as almost all cities of Bulgaria were not destroyed. In these battles, and fallen Altynchech father, the Emir of the Volga Bulgaria, and her lover, and she a princess and another forty her friends took up arms to defend their land. All of them were killed, and the heroic death of the Bulgarian warriors differently reflected in the legends that have come down to the present generations of their descendants. It is also said that in the capital of Volga Bulgaria appeared Bilyare spring, which turned the fallen defender of the city. And there is a version for which Altynchech sealed themselves with gosudartsvennoy treasury somewhere in the Ural Mountains, where it should ever come out. The legend of Altynchech also became the story of the same name of the opera, which was designed by the famous Kazan artists Peter Speranski. Pictures Bulat Gilvanova "Dreams Altynchech" Helmet
Last edited by FrozenmenSS; January 16, 2016 at 02:05 PM.
Ah another guy who wants to be shown a PDF file with long text about it to Belive it. Go to Tatarstan or Tatarstan related sites in their probably language and read stuff and Find it.Question: how many Croatian semi-legendary-Historical facts and stuff are translated into english? Im not obligated by anybody to find what you needed. just find the rest for yourself.I dont have the time for more.Go talk with private message the Artist of Facebook about the sources off the paintings.Do it and tell us. I have to feed 2 kids and go to work tomorrow.So Good night.
And dont go into the same mode with 30 related only post like X region wasnt to Croatia in another thread of the mod from before the Crash of TWC forum. Its boring.
Last edited by FrozenmenSS; January 16, 2016 at 02:24 PM.
Ah another guy who wants to be shown a PDF file with long text about it to Belive it.
Not really, just a single primary source of any form will do.
Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS
Go to Tatarstan or Tatarstan related sites in their probably language and read stuff and Find it.
I am not stating claims here, you are.
You are stating a claim of something being historical, therefore it is your own obligation to provide proper proof.
Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS
Question: how many Croatian semi-legendary-Historical facts and stuff are translated into english?
...so you admit it is semi legendary?
We have plenty of our own legendary stuff as well, like the battle of Grobnik, where Croats annihilated a grand army of 30 000 Mongols, but since there are no actual sources from the period mentioning the battle, we do not actually take it as historical fact.
Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS
And dont go into the same mode with 30 related only post like X region wasnt to Croatia in another thread of the mod from before the Crash of TWC forum. Its boring.
Did I hit a button?
Do actual historical facts bore you?
If so, then the topic of Bulgarian Ksena warriors is at an end.
Hey smart guy read the first Sentences in my first main post.
The Legend of Princess Altynchech of Volga Bulgaria is a bit murky because over the last 800 years is filled with Legendary and Mythological Stuff about her and I will try as much to post what is confirmed about Her. Now She was the most known Woman warrior of Sunni Islamic Volga Bulgaria,but she wasnt the only 1
Im not wanting adding general with that name but get historically correct info about the culture and how women and men fought side by side. Also no1 have said anything for the Cumman female warriors unit from the Russian Med 2 mod. Any info about them?
The tactic that man describes was first used by Turkic Tribes in Central Asia which is called Crescent tactic. Because when you look at it from the sky it really looks like a crescent. It was probably used by all steppe nomads though....
I've been researching the topic a bit more, and so far I have found references in Bulgarian folklore to polenitsa, or female warriors in the Folklore Historian, although they are mentioned as being closely related to other parts of the Slavic mythic tradition.
I will keep looking into this issue; although I have to say early Slavic history is a minefield of ethno-nationalism. It is very hard to find very unbiased sources.
Edit 1:
I have found more references to these Polenitsa, as the Russian Polenitzi from early Russian poetry,
Edit 2:
I think some of the best places to look for primary source documentation on Bulgarian warrior women would be the Hypatian codex, the records of Monk Moksa or Geoffrey de Villehardouns account of the 4th crusade, since the Bulgarians played a major role in some of the battles there.
I have already looked through Geoffrey's account and found nothing specifying warrior women, and I would look at the other two sources but they both seem to be in Russian. If anyone here understands Russian here are the links for you to look through:
I will also look through them with google translate, but I expect that will screw up the language a lot.
Edit 3:
After some more looking, I can't find anything that references Altynchech as a real person; neither her or her father Jelal-ed-Din Altanbek Allen. As for the siege of Bilar; still sifting through documentation on that for any references to her.
Edit 4:
I have so far found no historical references to Bulgarian warrior women, or Altynchech as a real person. Outside scattered references to warrior women in folklore both in the Balkans proper, and in Russia, and archeological and literary references to Scythian and Sarmatian warrior women there appears to be no historical record of warrior women forming a major component of Bulgarian armies during any point in the middle ages.
I am always open to new sources though, if they come up.
Last edited by Dontfearme22; January 16, 2016 at 04:53 PM.
Even if little information about female-warriors helps to enrich roster and make it unique ... I am for Yes!
Too long, didn't read:
From my take on it, looking at images and reading historical accounts of female warriors, this is my suggestion for a female Bulgarian unit:
Bulgarian unit with females wearing normal Bulgarian armor, not a "female" version. A garrison unit so that it's primarily for siege defense/reinforcement. Possibly high status, but probably not peasantry class. Doubtful that they have combat training on par with male garrison units, but higher than average moral because they are protecting their children. The size of the unit and it's composition is hard to tell, possibly mixed male and female.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Extended version:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
This post goes the other way, towards experimental archaeology, looking at how to incorporate Bulgarian folklore with the in game roster. Even if people reading this disagree, let's entertain the thought for a minute. Personally, I'm not convinced that there were regular female warriors in a standing medieval field army, historically speaking. From what I've read (and I'm open to be corrected) I do not think it happened. Saying all that, this is not an Ma Thesis, it's a video game that is suppose to be interesting and have variety. Finix (developer) have said he is in favor of a female unit because it adds variety.
So to my understanding of the post by Dontfearme22 above, we lack evidence to have a female centered unit for this faction, but there's more to this. The fact that we do not have evidence for something doesn't mean that it didn't exist. At this stage we're in what Matt Easton calls "we'll never really know territory, so we have to use our brains"[1]. We can discuss the probability of a female unit and the impact it had on a Bulgarian roster, but if we were to assume that there were some female participation in the Bulgarian roster--what would that unknown factor look like? This is my approach:
This unknown area is a difficult subject because it's unknown (duh), but we can experiment using different sources. For starters we can be inspired by Bulgarian folklore and by comparing it with other cultures that we know had some female warriors. Female warriors that had an impact. Once compared with other examples of female warriors from other cultures, we have something to build on. So for example, we have an account of the creation of the Order of the Hatchet, Catalonia 12th century. Simply, in defense of their settlement females dressed up in male armor and defended during a siege by the Moors. Succeeding in the defense, the females were honored by their lord for their bravery so we can expect they had some impact in that battle. The order didn't last very long and it being a secondary source can make it problematic, but we can withdraw certain aspects from it. We know they dressed in the exact same armor as men had. Ok, so we have something. Another point is that we have 50-60 images depicting (western) females in combat scenarios. Mostly artistically loaded with folklore, but they're almost all in male armor and many related to sieges. Now can add something we learn from that as well. Once we have merged Bulgarian folklore, images and other historical accounts, we can build a Bulgarian unit with female representation. For example a rough draft: female soldiers inspired by Bulgarian folklore, in male armor and as a garrison/reinforcement unit. It's still an unknown entity that we'll never really know, but it's a start.
So to kick off with something of substance. FrozenmenSS provided folklore related to siege defense and high status females. I honestly don't know much of that aspects, so I'm not going to go too far into it. I'm sure other people can give better accounts. The second part is that we have the account of the Order of the Hatchet.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The Example is of the noble Women of Tortosa in Aragon, and recorded by Josef Micheli Marquez, who plainly calls them Cavalleros, or Knights; or may I not rather say Cavalleras, seeing I observe the words Equitissae and Militissae (formed from the Latin Equites and Milites) heretofore applied to Women, and sometimes used to express Madams, or Ladies; though now these Titles are not known.
Don Raymond, last Earl of Barcellona (who by an intermarriage with *Petronilla, only Daughter and Heir of King Ramiro the Monk, united that Princi∣pality to the Kingdom of Aragon) having, in the year 1149. gained the City of Tortosa from the Moors, they on the 31. of December following, laid a new Siege to that place, for the recovery of it out of the Earls hands. The Inha∣bitants being at length reduced to great streights, desired relief of the Earl; but he being not in a condition to give them any, they entertained some thoughts of making a surrender. Which the Women hearing of, to prevent the disaster threatning their City, themselves, and Children; put on mens Clothes, and by a resolute sally, forced the Moors to raise the Siege.
The Earl, finding himself obliged, by the gallantry of the action, thought it to make his acknowledgments thereof, by granting them several Priviledges and Immunities; and, to perpetuate the memory of so signal an attempt, d Insti∣tuted an Order, somewhat like a Military Order, into which were admitted only those brave Women, deriving the honor to their Descendants, and assigned them for a Badge, a thing like a Fryars Capouche, sharp at the top, after the form of a Torch, and of a crimson colour, to be worn upon their Head-clothes. He also ordained, that at all publick meetings, the Women should have precedence of the Men; That they should be exempted from all Taxes; and that all the Apparel and Jewels, though of never so great value, left by their dead Hus∣bands, should be their own.
These Women (saith our Author) having thus acquired this Honor by their personal Valour, carried themselves after the manner of Military Knights of those days.
Don Raymond captures a settlement. He takes his men out and continues his campaign. The original settlement is poorly defended when besieged by the Moors, but females show bravery by defending it. They put on male armor and succeed. They are thus honored by their lord with Order of the Hatchet and other privileges. My interpretation is that these females were probably not riff raff, seeing as they had access to armor and were "knighted". How many? I don't know. Details? Hard to say, but they did at least impress their lord enough to grant them significant status.
The last part I mentioned is the images I talked about depicting females in combat scenarios. This is going to be a fairly long list of females in combat related scenarios. The images are made during the middle ages and in western/central Europe.
The date under the pictures are the likely creation of the images, not when the thing in the images took place. Click on each image and you'll get sent to the library of where they are stored. Some also have a description to them for some context.
As can be observed, note that all of them have normal armor. There is no female bikini or Skyrim armor.
My conclusion is therefor at the top of my post.
~Wille
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
In the Bulgarian page in Wikipedia about the siege of Buliar she and her father are mentioned as some of the commanders and also in the main Molgol invasion of Volga Bulgaria page leading the Bulgars.
The more I see it - a typical Examle about haven't been uploaded in the Web and still being in the Old books from the past and in primal medieval texts and not known yet even for the mainstream public to try to fantasy about it .Typical for Eastern Europe.Lazy.And Btw no1 know in Danube Bulgaria about even 1 of the rulers of Volga Bulgaria not to mention the rest of the history of the Volga Bulgaria that's not in the history books at the schools and universities.The focus there is the Medieval Danube Bulgaria.Some may even dont know that the Bulgars on the Itil (volga) adopted Islam. In Tatarstan the revival of their Bulgarian history that started after 1989 as scientific research using the scientific method is deleyed not by a decades but probably a century due to political reasons.Also It's the same in other parts in the former USSR automonous republics in the Russian Federation. And until 1989 western scholarships didn't had access even to pre WW2 and post Soviet documents, not to mention for the medieval history for a smaller political entity like Tatarstan where the soviet propaganda was they were Tatars not Bulgarians but in reality they are from both desendens.
In Danube Bulgaria is the same - the propaganda was that the nomadic Bulgarians were drowned in the Slavic Sea and that they were only 15 000 in the 680s. Nowadays the numbers were probably around 2-3 millions. And the genes of modern Bulgarians got the same % of mongoloid DNA as the modern Germans. And the slavic genes are around 10-15%.Same for the scytian Genes.The rest is genes who are highly relatable with modern people from Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan.
From what I know the genes of the Volga Bulgars/Tatarstani people they had big mixture between themselves and the Golden Horde after the arrival of the Mongols in the 13th century. Also another note after th arival on the Volga the Bulgarians in the 9-10th century started to mix with the local Volga Finnis like ugrians mordvins and the local magyars in the area. Also with some minor cumman DNA from before the arrival of the mongols.
Btw the old main archives of Volga Bulgaria and the Kazan khaganate are still in Moscow and locked and nobody got access to it.Even the scientists. It's the same with the Vatican ones in the past/present in Rome.
Kjertesvein great post. Now by the look of everything my impression is that the unit rosters of the factions in the mod on average is around 20 so 2 only female 1 low tier and 1 late tier cavalry units (probably horse archers can do it) and if you choose to add also mixed male female unit maybe another 2 infantry units with unit cards of men this can do the trick. And some of them to be recruitable in AOR this will be perfect.
For females that were warriors in Danube Bulgaria in the medieval bulgaria the most known example is the battle of Pliska/Varbitza pass where Krum the Fearsome armed hole regiments of women against the Romans in 811.
Another reason why Bogomilism was popular in the balkans and the peasants was that in that Ortodox sect men and women were equal and noone needed to pay the nobles taxes. The heretic movement started in the mid 10th century in Bulgaria and died out in the 15th century and in the mod that sect is already added. For the Second Bulgarian Tzarstvom/Empire the most known women are queens and some noblewoman. In the mid 13th century there were queens who ruled the state and the nobles didn't liked it and rebeled vs the capital. But no female warriors in that time known to history.
But after the fall of the balkans there were women leading bulgarian rebels against the Ottoman turks up until 1878 and there were songs about them if I'm not mistaken.
Wikipedia does not count by itself as a high-quality source.
That said; if the mod leaders aren't totally focused on a very hardline interpretation of history, I do think there is room for women warriors in the Bulgarians.
I agree with Kjertesvein in a lot of ways, and what he says corroborates with what I researched(but didn't put in the post itself). That is, in almost all the cases where women warriors are mentioned in folklore they aren't being "strong women", they are simply acting as substitutes assuming a male role i.e. they functionally change genders. Being a warrior was a male occupation, and women could only participate if they "became" men temporarily.
So as long as the mod leaders are okay with using folklore, then you could very much have a unit of females, but as Kjertesvein said they would have to be dressed exactly the same as male warriors. I admittedly don't know if they should be segregated or blended in with other units though.
Well the units in the mod are determined by how well the team knows about the faction being worked on (which could range from very knowledgeable to almost ignorant). I'm probably the most anal about the equipment used in Western European factions, but I would not say that my team is totally dedicated to presenting a simulation of the Medieval Era. Honestly, I have never read anything about the Bulgarians until this thread.
So before the TWC database rollback I posted a couple of resources for the team to use. I think that got deleted, so I'm going to repost it again with some additional ones as well. Enjoy.
Muster Roll database
Service records of 94,962 (mostly) English men during the second and third phase of the 100 years war. Also two secondary rolls.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Almost 100 000 service records of English soldiers in the 100 years war. A great source for First name, Sur name, captains, commanders, location, years of service or recruitment, type of soldier, nature of activity, status, etc.
There is also a protection database and a Normandy garrison database giving us legal information of promised service and Norman recruitment by the English overlords respectively.
Check the right hand side for additional information, such as
Source Information
Muster database
The nominal data currently available by searching the online database is drawn from the muster rolls surviving in The National Archives (TNA) in Exchequer Accounts Various (E101). These are working documents that would probably have been drawn up in advance of a campaign, and then annotated at least once, during a formal muster at the port of embarkation. They represent mainly overseas expeditions as per the sample summarised below.
The process of raising armies in England was highly bureaucratic and driven by the Exchequer with their obsession for accounting for monies being spent. Forces were raised by indenture (a contract), which specified size, rank, length and location of service. The expeditionary force was subject then subject to muster and review. Thus the muster rolls themselves are annotated with soldiers who have not turned up for service or who have not 'passed muster', deaths, promotions and replacements. Presently this level of detail is not shown on the online database. A sample of sources covered:
Land expeditions:
1370 (to France under Sir Robert Knolles): 1 roll, multiple retinues
1373 (to France under the duke of Lancaster): 3 rolls, 3 retinues
1375 (to Brittany under the earl of Cambridge and duke of Brittany): 1 roll, 1 retinue
1380-81 (to Brittany under the earl of Buckingham): 2 rolls, 4 retinues
1384 (to Scotland under the duke of Lancaster): 1 roll, 1 retinue (+ large sub-retinues)
1400 (to Scotland under Henry IV): 2 rolls, multiple retinues
1405 (to Wales, projected under Prince Henry): 1 roll, 1 retinue
1415 (to France under Henry V): 28 rolls, multiple retinues
1417 (to France under Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester): 1 roll, multiple retinues
1420 (to France under Henry V): 1 roll, multiple retinues
1421 (to France under Henry V): 1 roll, multiple retinues
1441 (to France under Duke Richard of York): 2 roll, multiple retinues
1443 (to France under John, Duke of Somerset): 1 roll, multiple retinues
1449 (to France under Edmund, Duke of Somerset): 1 roll, multiple retinues Naval expeditions:
1371 (under the earl of Hereford): 1 roll, 1 retinue
1372 (under Edward III): 16 rolls, 16 retinues
1373 (under the earl of Salisbury): 1 roll, 1 retinue
1374 (under Sir William de Neville + Sir Philip de Courtenay): 9 rolls, 9 retinues
1377-78 (under the earl of Buckingham): 7 rolls, 7 retinues
1378 (under the earl of Arundel and duke of Lancaster): 6 rolls, multiple retinues
1385 (under Sir Thomas Percy): 1 roll, 1 retinue
1387 (under the earl of Arundel): 2 rolls, multiple retinues
1388 (under the earl of Arundel): 1 roll, multiple retinues 1417 (under Sir Thomas Carew): 1 roll, multiple retinues
1418 (under the earl of Devon): 1 roll, 6 retinues
Protection database
This database contains letters of protection and powers of attorney granted and recorded on the Treaty (or French) Rolls (TNA C 76), Gascon rolls (TNA C61) and Scottish Rolls (TNA C 71) for the years 1369-1453. They represent a very different source to that available in the Muster roll database and should be treated with care. They are both legal instruments that would be taken by soldiers, prior to undertaking military service. However, they only demonstrate for the most part intention to serve, although protections were also sought by others going overseas or to Scotland, for instance in support of the armies as victuallers. The letter of protection protected an individual from prosecution whilst serving overseas; and by a power of attorney an individual could appoint legal representatives to act on his behalf whilst absent. For the reliability of this source for the campaigns of 1387-1388 see Adrian R Bell, War and the Soldier in the Fourteenth Century (Boydell, 2004), pp. 68-79; and for other discussion see Andrew Ayton, Knights and Warhorses: Military Service and the English Aristocracy under Edward III (Boydell, 1994), pp. 157-159 and Michael Prestwich, Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: The English Experience (New Haven, 1996), pp. 109-110.
Manuscripts and Miniature database
This is an archive of manuscripts and miniatures from European national libriaries scanned and archive. Click on the Tags, Ctrl+F what ever medieval object you search you'll probably find something.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
It's important to note that the date under the images doesn't necessarily mean date of when it occur, but it's reference to when the manuscript was most likely was made and where it was made. For example searching Amazons and you'll get the miniatures from the legend of amazon where the equipment mirror 14th century medieval Europe in full knightly armor.
There are sister tabs on top for Effigiesandbrasses, armour in art and aquamanilla, but those are less extensive. Still worth looking at the other ones, specially effigies.
Historical fencing manuals
Resources of medieval treatises and HEMA research.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
A website dedicated to HEMA and the treatisis. Each treaties comes in PDF format with a number of interesting images. Although they mostly deal with tournament or duels, it's also important to note that a soldier first has to learn how to use a weapon before using that weapon in a battle formation. Illustratively speaking, Roman gladiators didn't teach you about fighting in the field, it still teaches you about basic combat such as distance and timing and is relevant if the situation requires it. Additionally, the treatises sometimes touch on the differences between duels and battle formations.
Armor parts, weapons, shields, tents, industires & manufacturers, woodworks, facial hairs, baskets, cloth, headwear, feasts, etc. from both live and manuscripts.
Explaining how to use the thesis on european medieval armor 1350-1500 and how to look through the 3 gb of images of medieval armor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3821wEY-Ls
London based HEMA instructor Matt Easton's pintrest dealing mostly with weapons and armor. Live, HEMA and manuscripts. https://uk.pinterest.com/matt_easton/
Youtubers
I chose these youtubers because they often references primary source material as a basis for their videos.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Matt Easter: Hema instructor and degree in archaeology. Main field European swords and dueling, but also armor, battlefield context and other weapons. https://www.youtube.com/user/scholagladiatoria
Last edited by Kjertesvein; January 29, 2016 at 05:26 AM.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
- The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.
This is the only forum I visit with any sort of frequency and I'm glad it has provided a home for RTR since its own forum went down in 2007. Hopefully my donation along with others from TWC users will help get the site back to its speedy heyday, which will certainly aid us in our endeavor to produce a full conversion mod Rome2.
K. of Georgia, E. of Trebizond, Cumans, Alans: some historical facts and family tree.
Kingdom of Georgia:
Monarch: Queen Tamar (Bagrationi Dynasty grand daughter of David IV "The builder") age: 49
King: David Soslan (Prince of Alania) Died in 1207. Ruler of kingdom was Tamar.
Prince: George IV (son of Tamar) age: 20
Princess: Rusudan (Daughter of Tamar) age: 17
General: Zakharia ("Mxargrdzeli" meaning: Longarmed) Kurdish prince serving Feudal Georgia. age: 55
General: George (Bagrationi Branch prince) age: 25
Brief History: Tamar became Queen of Georgia in 27th March 1184, he got Strong Kingdom from her Father George III. She continued politics of David IV and George III of domination on nearby Kingdoms. Georgia was trying to create buffer zone on the borders. In 1202 Suleiman II of Seljuks tried to invade But he was defeated (Battle of Basian) over the borders of Kingdom (small town Basian) and after 2 years Tamar Created another tributary Kingdom in Trebizond.
Alans:
(Tributary State to Kingdom of Georgia)
King: Jadaron of Alania (dynasty unknown, age unknown, death unknown)
Prince: Aton of Alania son of Jadaron (Dynasty unknown, age Unknown death unknown)
Prince: David Soslan (Husband of Queen Tamar)
Brief History: Alans (Ossetian) are persian speaking peoples (Iranian Alans), they established Alania in 8-9th centuries. After 10th century Georgian missioners established orthodox belief in Alans and they converted from Paganism and Zoroastrism to Orthodox. Capital of Alania was Maghas. Alans were hired by different Kingdoms for battles.
Cumans: Not really a Kingdom but some kind of united tribes of Turkish origin. in the end on 12th century their leader war Artraka Son of Sharagan. Cumans were sacking Moldavia, Walachia, Transylvania, Kiev, Hungry and Novgorod towns. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchaks#History
Empire of Trebizond:
(Tributary State to Kingdom of Georgia) Interesting fact: Georgian historians called Trebizond Empire : "PONTUS".
King: Alexios I of Trebizond - age: 30 (Created Trebizond Empire in 1204 by the help of his aunt Queen Tamar)
Prince: David Komnenos - Brother of Alexios. Komnenos dynasty. Died in 1212
Prince: John I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios I Age: Unknown
Prince Manuel I of Trebizond - Son of Alexios, Husband of Rusudan of Georgia Age: Unknown
princess: Name unknown - daughter of Alexios I, age: Unknown
Brief History: Alexios I was Son of Manuel Komnenos (Sevastokrator of Byzantine Empire) and Rusudan (Daughter of George III of Georgia, Sister of Queen Tamar). During rebelion in Constantinople in 1185, his Father and his Grandfather were killed, and Rusudan took Alexios (4 years old) and his brother David(1 years old) to K. of Georgia. The remained in Georgia. in 1203 Georgian orthodox priests were robbed in Byzantine (Constantinople was besieged by Crusaders) so part of Georgian army invaded in byzantine and captured in succession Trebizond, Tchania, Liman, Samsun, Sinope, Kerasunt, Heraclea, Cotiora and other territories. Alexios I and his brother became rulers of the kingdom.
Alexios I gathered Army in few years and launched few succesful campaigns against Turks and Defended his kingdom from Nicaea. His son-in-law Andronikos I became ruler from 1222-1235, after that his son John I of Trebizond
Khwaresm Empire:
King: Muhammad II od Khwaresm (Dynasty Anushtegin) age: 61
Prince: Jalal-ad-Din Mingburnu - Elder son of Muhammad II Age: 13
Prince: Rukn-ad-Din Qursanjdi - Son of Muhammad II Age: less than 13
Prince: Qutb-ad-Din Uzlaq-Shah - son of Muhammad II age: less than 13
prince: Qiyath ad-Din Pir-Shah - son of Muhammad II Age: less than 13
Brief history: Ghurids defeated Muhhamad II few times in 1204 over Amu Darya and sacked Khvaresmn but Muhammad II was able to defeat Ghurids same year in 1204 he defeated them over Hezarasp. Muhammad II defeated Karakhanids in 1212 and destroyed them, took Samarkand and made this city as capital of Khwaresm empire.
Last edited by Caucasian Iberia; January 30, 2016 at 05:59 AM.
Re: Medieval Kingdoms Total War Research Thread
Originally Posted by FrozenmenSS
Now I wrote Everything I found about the Volga Bulgars in the 12-13th Century so this is from me. I updated the main post Above with the Historical Stuff.I will be glad if this helped you guys.
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