A question on Cavalry in DEI

[Sharpe_116]

Let me preface this by saying that I LOVE THIS MOD, its amazing, honestly. This labor of love is truly tremendous. Good work everyone, you are my hero's <3. Now on to my question.

Doing some messing around with eastern factions in custom battles on normal difficulty I noticed my heavy cavalry charges have been somewhat.. underwhelming? I just know tested using 3 heavy parthian cav (azavaran-i azadan, sorry if i miss-spelled that) Against a single roman Legionary unit. I encircled the roman unit in a sort of triangle formation that did a simultaneous charge, i expected to see some hilarious numbers on the charge and I just... didnt? The roman legionary lost about 20-25 units out of 200 and stabilized, my cavalry lost what i would consider a not-acceptable exchange (i dont know the exact number of cav dead, but it was enough to deter me from ever charging again for fear i may not have any cavalry left next time).

So now my question is, am i doing something wrong or is this the design of cavalry in DEI, and if so, how exactly am i intended to use cavalry then, because at this rate i feel i'd be better off just never bringing cavalry. Thanks in advance to =)

[jazebiker]

About the only units you can attack frontally with cavalry in 1.0 are missile troops (and other cavalry). They are really good at clearing out slingers and garden-variety javelinmen behind the enemy line once melee starts. Watch out for peltasts, though. They can tear most light cav units to shreds in melee.

They're also good at charging already engaged units from behind. Tends to rout them very quickly, but you can't just cycle-charge forever like you could in 0.96. You might get 5-6 good rear charges in without taking too many casualties.

Most of my Roman armies have a couple heavy cav units for situations when you run into the odd slinger stack (still occasionally happens even in DEI). When you need cavalry in DEI, you REALLY need them. The rest of the time, my cav is my 2nd or 3rd option for a flanking force. If you're playing a faction that has jav cav though, they're probably the best flankers in the game. 4-5 units of horse skirmishers hitting an enemy line from the rear is like dropping the a-bomb.

[Sharpe_116]

About the only units you can attack frontally with cavalry in 1.0 are missile troops (and other cavalry). They are really good at clearing out slingers and garden-variety javelinmen behind the enemy line once melee starts. Watch out for peltasts, though. They can tear most light cav units to shreds in melee.

They're also good at charging already engaged units from behind. Tends to rout them very quickly, but you can't just cycle-charge forever like you could in 0.96. You might get 5-6 good rear charges in without taking too many casualties.

Most of my Roman armies have a couple heavy cav units for situations when you run into the odd slinger stack (still occasionally happens even in DEI). When you need cavalry in DEI, you REALLY need them. The rest of the time, my cav is my 2nd or 3rd option for a flanking force. If you're playing a faction that has jav cav though, they're probably the best flankers in the game. 4-5 units of horse skirmishers hitting an enemy line from the rear is like dropping the a-bomb.

In my test only 1 of the cav units charged head on, the other 2 both flanked and these were my results. So as im understanding it Cav is somewhat not that useful for flanking, there are better infantry options. So then why would i bring cav ><?

[jazebiker]

So then why would i bring cav ><?

Really, the only reason I keep them around in my Julii campaign is because nothing is quicker for routing off masses of barbarian missile troops. Limits the number of casualties my infantry takes. And see the note about javelin cavalry. Probably the most OP units in the game right now if you know how to use them properly.

[cyox]

hybrid cav and missile cav are still pretty strong due to mobility but i've stopped using melee and shock cav as regular infantry units better for flanking now. way cheaper and way less fragile.

[zonks40]

I would image that balancing so many units would be a nightmare, and there is obviously plenty more to do yet, just looking at the stats of Legionary cavalry and Tarantine missile cavalry, they both have the same melee attack, the same charge bonus, the Tarantine cavalry have 4 less melee defence, melee cavalry should have higher melee attack than Missile cav, they should also have a higher charge bonus being heavier cavalry.

[KAM 2150]

I would image that balancing so many units would be a nightmare, and there is obviously plenty more to do yet, just looking at the stats of Legionary cavalry and Tarantine missile cavalry, they both have the same melee attack, the same charge bonus, the Tarantine cavalry have 4 less melee defence, melee cavalry should have higher melee attack than Missile cav, they should also have a higher charge bonus being heavier cavalry.

Tarantines were melee/missile unit, they changed their role depending on the needs. They mostly fought in smaller numbers. They were in fact spear cavalry and in RTW2 they should be propably only cav that throws javelins before charge. They carried combat spear and single javelin with them, during charge they would throw the javelin, then in mid charge switch the spear to other hand and ram into the gaps caused by missile fire. Strictly missile Tarantines fought from V to IV BC, were unarmoured or only carried a shield and never fought in melee. In late IV BC and early III BC they were employed in Diadochi armies, but not as true Tarantines but rather as regular cav fighting in Tarantines style.

As for OP, I can kill up to 35 legionares with single frontal charge from Hellenic Cataphracts on Legionares, then they quickly rank up to 50-60 kills, I pull them pack, lose 3-5 guys and charge again.

[Alu10]

Tarantines were melee/missile unit, they changed their role depending on the needs. They mostly fought in smaller numbers. They were in fact spear cavalry and in RTW2 they should be propably only cav that throws javelins before charge. They carried combat spear and single javelin with them, during charge they would throw the javelin, then in mid charge switch the spear to other hand and ram into the gaps caused by missile fire. Strictly missile Tarantines fought from V to IV BC, were unarmoured or only carried a shield and never fought in melee. In late IV BC and early III BC they were employed in Diadochi armies, but not as true Tarantines but rather as regular cav fighting in Tarantines style.

As for OP, I can kill up to 35 legionares with single frontal charge from Hellenic Cataphracts on Legionares, then they quickly rank up to 50-60 kills, I pull them pack, lose 3-5 guys and charge again.

I thought you would increase the numbers of horsemen in one unit for nomad factions?

[KAM 2150]

I thought you would increase the numbers of horsemen in one unit for nomad factions?

What do you mean? All nomad cav units are set to 120 men, so their heavy cav, besides being mostly better, has also 20 men advantage over other heavy cav.

[Sharpe_116]

Tarantines were melee/missile unit, they changed their role depending on the needs. They mostly fought in smaller numbers. They were in fact spear cavalry and in RTW2 they should be propably only cav that throws javelins before charge. They carried combat spear and single javelin with them, during charge they would throw the javelin, then in mid charge switch the spear to other hand and ram into the gaps caused by missile fire. Strictly missile Tarantines fought from V to IV BC, were unarmoured or only carried a shield and never fought in melee. In late IV BC and early III BC they were employed in Diadochi armies, but not as true Tarantines but rather as regular cav fighting in Tarantines style.

As for OP, I can kill up to 35 legionares with single frontal charge from Hellenic Cataphracts on Legionares, then they quickly rank up to 50-60 kills, I pull them pack, lose 3-5 guys and charge again.

I just tried this and couldn't replicate your results. I charged a marian legionary unit head on using hellenic Cataphracts and killed 19 units, then my cav started taking losses from combat and i had to pull out, i neded up with 22 cav dead. Using the method i read about however, disabling wedge formation and giving them a wide-drag order did save me many casualties when retreating(i only lost 1 or 2 on the retreat instead of like 50). I would be interested in a more detailed description of how you managed to get such a strong charge, I must be doing something wrong.

[Ritterlichvon86]

I just tried this and couldn't replicate your results. I charged a marian legionary unit head on using hellenic Cataphracts and killed 19 units, then my cav started taking losses from combat and i had to pull out, i neded up with 22 cav dead. Using the method i read about however, disabling wedge formation and giving them a wide-drag order did save me many casualties when retreating(i only lost 1 or 2 on the retreat instead of like 50). I would be interested in a more detailed description of how you managed to get such a strong charge, I must be doing something wrong.

+rep and I salute you for trying what was suggested (disable wedge formation, wide-drag order), and posting the results: "(i only lost 1 or 2 on the retreat instead of like 50)". I'm glad that some are actually following this.

The issue with cavalry retreating is vanilla made. I guess we could fix it - but only by a) making cavalry almost invincible and overpowered like in 0.96 or b) removing all variants of cavalry formations.

Or c) people follow your example and learn to micro cavalry better in Rome 2 (this is not about DeI, but a Rome 2 BAI unit pathfinding issue that has existed since Rome 2's rushed release, and is one of the first skills a Rome2 online-battle player will learn). I see some may not do this today because cavalry was way too OP in 0.96 for it to matter, so blame the DeI devs please

[stevehoos]

Crap, should have put my other post in here. I agree, heavy cavalry is not worth bringing to the battle. Dismount them and they last the whole battle and don't go getting slaughtered after one charge. I agree with the 1.0 changes for the most part, but I feel that the price of the unit is way over what they are worth. A unit that is good for one charge is a liability, they lose in melee, then you pull them out and they get decimated.

I also understand this is a difficult balance to try to make, keep up the good work guys!

[GOW LIKE A BOSS]

Idk about heavy cav, haven't used them in 1.0 yet (just had access to light cav as Massilia, then later chariots as Pontus - which are beast, btw).

But my understanding is that the Roman infantry is supposed to be totally badass in 1.0. I think it's supposed to be really hard to beat Rome on a consistent basis. I've really had no trouble routing barbarian spearmen by flank charging them with my medium barbarian cav. Just gotta stick everyone in a wedge, slam them in the back and keep a close eye on the death rate. It'll spike quickly (with the infantry losing about 30-40 men in about 5 seconds). When it starts slowing down, pull the cav out, have them reset formation, then recharge. I haven't noticed much difference with the flanking in 1.0 with the cav I did use, but I haven't charged any Roman legions. When I charged hoplites in phalanx (from behind, of course) my casualty rate was less, but still quite useful.

[FlashHeart07]

In a campaign as the Arverni I have made excellent use of only two units of cavalry and one being my general. I lose 1/4 of them but they are able to rout all enemy missile units and then I use them to hammer their already engaged infantry from the rear causing them to rout. In version 1.0 you cannot charge every unit and cause a massive chain rout like you could in 0.96 but calling cav somewhat useless in 1.0 is wrong imo. If you do like Ritterlich wrote in another thread and withdraw cav from melee by getting them out of wedge formation and drawing them out in a long thin line. This way they will take almost no casualties retreating since this way reduces their contact with the enemy infantry.

[Alu10]

Arabian Cav gets half destroyed when retreating from a successful charge in the back of a infantry unit. Pretty crappy, these guys cost 260 upkeep..

[Linke]

Light Cavalry like Arabian and low tier celtic and Diadochi cav isnt supposed to be used as heavy cavalry, rear chagrins but as light cavalry pickingof skirmishers.
I usualy hide them on the enemys flanks and when they are engaged they can raid and rout the enemy skirmishers.

[razorts]

cavalry has extremely low defense value, that gets cut in half when surrounded. cav doesnt keep stable line/formation infantry goes in between them and pretty much every fight is like they are being flanked. Cav on average have 45 def that gets reduced to 20 when not at front and most infantry have more than that in attack even some archers and jav so beware

[loony]

with the current cav cost I have gone to using only 2 units of cavalry in my armies, almost exclusively to hunt skirmishers.
if the enemy has more cavalry there is some nasty microing to do (pin enemy cav, run up with spears, retreat your cav), but rear attacks are no longer necessary.

[stevehoos]

I attacked a line of Averni spear units that were engaged in their front by a hoplite unit directly from behind. I had 60 or so units left when I made the charge, lost entire unit, routed. I had only used them for one charge in the battle prior. Maybe it's Massillia Royal Cavalry but heavy Horse units suck. I attacked a group of Insubres archers at 3/5 strength mid battle and lost between 10-15 of my men against that, that's nonsense. These units as I said above are good for one charge, and they stink in melee against medium to light units. They are pitiful against heavy units. What's the point, they are worthless. They are dying in melee combat like light missile infantry. I have to run away from medium and lower tier units with my supposed best unit because when I withdraw I loose half the unit, hogwash. Maye there are some balancing issues with the insubres perhaps? I hope. 17 melee attack for the heavy cavalry units? That's like most low end units.

0.96 was better than this, in this regard.

[geala]

As I understand it it's the result of getting away from the hammer and anvil principle that in the teams opinion made it too easy for the player to surround and rout AI units. Unfortunately the remedy makes a whole branch of the army that in the opinion of some people who knew a little bit about ancient warfare (Alexandros III. or Hannibal f.e.) was extremely important a bit of a liability. Now the contrary to the ancient rule, better to have more cavalry than infantry in comparison to the enemy, is true in DeI. We have to live with it but maybe the team will offer alternative settings, so everybody could be pleased.