Please balance the Units (Iberian Beserks and hastati)

[Plautus]

First: Thx for this amazing mod. I love it.
But:
It needs some serious balancing.
Battle difficulty : Normal
Me: Massalia AI: One of this iberian Tribes.
Defensive Battle.

My army consisted of very though massalia hoplites and some cav and some archers.
AI Army was full of hastati and beserks (with axes).

Outgoing:

Played the battle 5 times. NO WAY to defeat them. They charge the hell out of my hoplites. The beserks eating my pike formation for breakfest.
I think they need to be tonned down a bit.

I wouldnt minded if i have more stacks. But i am barely able to hold my 2 citys. I cant afford more units.

Massalia is unplayble for me this way .

or am i doing something wrong?

[Ygraine]

Could you take a screenie of their stats? Never heard of them before!

[FlashHeart07]

Massalia is a very tough starting position due to the high number of barbarian tribes surrounding them. Cannot help with the unit balancing but try getting a boat to greece to set up Trade agreements

[GatoVolador]

You don´t mention how many units there were on either side, if you got frontally charged or flanked, the stats of the units, etc...

In my experience so far with 1.x, hoplites IN HOPLITE PHALANX can grind down nearly anything without loosing too much men, even against sword units of higher quality: currently on my pontus campaign, galatia couldn´t so much as spit at me; once I conquered them I recruitet curoas, which are a really good quality sword unit (30 atck, 19 dmg)- they got chewed on a frontal assault against bread and butter hoplites from colchis.
Right now, hoplites resist even flanking with a shrug (and I´m using pantadipoi, probably the weakest hoplites at my disposition); the only efficient way to kill and rout hoplites quickly is to shover them with proyectiles, best from behind...

So either you are seriously outnumbered, and thus shouldn´t have put your army in that situation, or you are doing something wrong in-battle...

Cheers

[Plautus]

You don´t mention how many units there were on either side, if you got frontally charged or flanked, the stats of the units, etc...

In my experience so far with 1.x, hoplites IN HOPLITE PHALANX can grind down nearly anything without loosing too much men, even against sword units of higher quality: currently on my pontus campaign, galatia couldn´t so much as spit at me; once I conquered them I recruitet curoas, which are a really good quality sword unit (30 atck, 19 dmg)- they got chewed on a frontal assault against bread and butter hoplites from colchis.
Right now, hoplites resist even flanking with a shrug (and I´m using pantadipoi, probably the weakest hoplites at my disposition); the only efficient way to kill and rout hoplites quickly is to shover them with proyectiles, best from behind...

So either you are seriously outnumbered, and thus shouldn´t have put your army in that situation, or you are doing something wrong in-battle...

Cheers

1 Full stack vs 1 Full Stack. Frontal attack of his units into my spears.
You can easily check out the units when going into custom battle and check the iberian units.

And to the other fellow:

I already have a decent economy. I owned the surrounding babarians (but needed to give Ligurians one province so they act as military ally and puffer).
The problem are those crazy spaniards.

Try a custom battle. 5 Massialia hoplites vs 3 of those beserks and 2 hastati. Massilia defending.

[Tundra98]

Wait, ibera can field hastati? O.o

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Wait, ibera can field hastati? O.o

They get those scutum infantry, perhaps he meant those?

I'm more interested in how he saw berserkers being used by Iberian tribes, let alone by the AI.

I've never once seen the AI reach the point where it's using berserkers, or even if it can, it never seems to.
I figured someone left them out of the AI's unit templates for some reason.

[RedGuard]

Wait, ibera can field hastati? O.o

Loricati Caetrati


sorry I just love hearing that . I think loricati is one of my favorite words.

[Butan]

Loricati Caetrati


sorry I just love hearing that . I think loricati is one of my favorite words.

Lol, same too bad I dont have much Iberian factions to play with thanks to dumb DLC.

On the matter of units, thanks for report, next time type the exact name of the units and their stats in the OP, right off the bat.
There is tons of units in DeI, and there is a strong probability that at one point, in the myriad of possible scenarios between factions, "unbalanced" (good paper/scissor/rock) units will come crashing your game. It can be intended, or it can not be; in that last case its really important that you report what you have seen with honesty.

Falx-type units or units with really high attack/defense are monitored by the team with extreme caution, because they know that those kind of units can be the source of complaints. Dont worry the big guys sees all!!!

[Irishmafia2020]

How did you "give" the Ligurians a province?

[FlashHeart07]

How did you "give" the Ligurians a province?

What he probably ment was that he liberated them, and thereby made them his military allies.

[KAM 2150]

Can you post the screenshots of their stats? I won't be able to check out Rome until 7th of Januray.

[Dresden]

What battle difficulty are you playing on? Are your hoplites and pikes in phalanx formation? Are you sure to tell them to attack? Are you using your skirmishers and cavalry to flank?

@KAM I think he is referring to the Goidilic berserkers who are a falx unit. The falxmen can be really, really nasty in 1.0.

[KAM 2150]

They have hammers I believe, they just use falx in weapon entries and animation (since it is only two handed weapon in RTW). Their unit size is 200 men.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

The units he's describing I went into the custom battle to look at. If they are the ones I think, they have a whopping 35 weapon damage and the fluff entry states they use two handed axes that cause grievous wounds to enemies even through armor. The specific falxmen from Illyria or Thrace only had about 23-26 weapon damage if I recall correctly.

They aren't extremely well armoured though, so it seems like a high threat unit to focus on taking out quickly before their high damage weapons can start taking your troops apart. Skirmishers or archers/slingers would be ideal for taking them out or softening them up before the lines clash.
Do that, and you should be having much less trouble.

[Plautus]

The units he's describing I went into the custom battle to look at. If they are the ones I think, they have a whopping 30 weapon damage and the fluff entry states they use two handed axes that cause grievous wounds to enemies even through armor. The specific falxmen from Illyria or Thrace only had about 23-26 weapon damage if I recall correctly.

They aren't extremely well armoured though, so it seems like a high threat unit to focus on taking out quickly before their high damage weapons can start taking your troops apart. Skirmishers or archers/slingers would be ideal for taking them out or softening them up before the lines clash.
Do that, and you should be having much less trouble.

Exactly, Exactly. Thx for pointing it out.
And to you and dresden:
As Massalia you are simply unable to field enough units like cav to stomp them before they meet your lines. Archers wont do the trick. The full stack of this iberian lunatics is full of this hastatis and this maniacs with hammer falcas or whatever.
And they charge. Boy and how they charge. They run into your lined up pikes (in formation and this phalanx mode). And you loose. Utterly. Simply not enough time to soften them up.

I tried it again.
Guys i had 2 stacks. 1 Reinforcement Stack from a city (i retreated there).
The lunatic were charging right into my main stack (they had 3 units more then me). My reinforcing army needed like 3 min to join the fight. From Behind!!!!!
My mainarmy routed when my reinforcements arrived. My Reinforcments routed a minute later.

This spanish army composition is definitly impossible to beat with only 2 citys to support your army.

[zombieflanders]

Have you tried the 1.02a test fix? One of the fixes is to falx units.

[KaHzModAn]

Havent tried the latest fix,
but it is true they are very powerful...
here's their stats :
http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/...CE8222AFB77B5/

They mow down hoplite phalanx (in formation) from the front, without taking much casualties
and even when i charged their back with my royal massilian hippeis, they lost around 10 guys... and butchered 30 horsemen before I got them out

seeing their stats, i'd say they have the highest HP i've seen in the mod (? one of the highest at least)
and with their very fine 40 armor, they are quite tanky

[razorts]

they have very low defense, do they get some hidden bonuses not shown?

[KaHzModAn]

I've been testing them a bit, it's true they have low defense,
but they kill so many troops that it doesn't really matters :p

Their charge is very powerful, charging 1v1 against oathsworns, they kill 20 right off the bat (and lost only one)
after that the oathsworns got the advantage back little by little but they killed 140 oathsworns before fleeing

they also have a single jav,
they fear ennemies and encourage allies