Feedback: Elves

**webba84** · October 12, 2016, 07:43 AM

ooh, the automated governance again, the side effects of that are starting to get really irritating...

**Wambat** · October 12, 2016, 09:57 AM

Whether or not a general can have his weapons upgraded depends on how he is acquired. If he is recruited, promoted, adopted, etc. Which allows and which does not I do not clearly remember, but it is not something the modders can correct.

For the Tanneries and Woolmakers it sounds like a few line changes should correct the problem.

As for auto-upgrading units. I supposed the penalties for not having local governance could be removed. Personally, I never don't want my units upgraded. Maybe a sub-mod changing that one feature could be offered for those who do not like it.

**Michael11** · October 12, 2016, 06:28 PM

[QUOTE=CountMRVHS;15141415]By correct infrastructure, I think it means a Lord's Barracks or some level of MD. Do the Noldor Swords show up as being trainable at any of the barracks?

They don't at the first two levels of barracks. Don't know about the third,as I haven't managed to get that far yet.

**Wambat** · October 12, 2016, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by Michael11

By correct infrastructure, I think it means a Lord's Barracks or some level of MD. Do the Noldor Swords show up as being trainable at any of the barracks?

They don't at the first two levels of barracks. Don't know about the third,as I haven't managed to get that far yet.

That list should be available through the project browser.

**Michael11** · October 14, 2016, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Wambat

That list should be available through the project browser.

Checking the project browser,none of the barracks contain any reference to Noldor Swords,unless it's a Rivendell only exclusive building,which there doesn't seem to be
any reference to that either.

**Wambat** · October 14, 2016, 08:51 AM

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**CountMRVHS** · October 14, 2016, 03:13 PM

And, IIRC, if you right-click the unit name in that panel, there will be a little section telling you how they can't be trained from scratch, only re-trained, and you need both the Royal Barracks and the rebuilt Library.

**Michael11** · October 15, 2016, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

And, IIRC, if you right-click the unit name in that panel, there will be a little section telling you how they can't be trained from scratch, only re-trained, and you need both the Royal Barracks and the rebuilt Library.

I don't know why,but in my game,it doesn't show Noldor Swords in the barracks list.

**CountMRVHS** · October 15, 2016, 11:46 AM

Hmm. Do they only show up at the barracks list *after* you've rebuilt the library?

**webba84** · October 16, 2016, 07:43 PM

Are you looking at the Barracks in Rivendell? Silly question I know, but if you are looking at the barracks in, say, Mithlond, then they won't show up.

**The Sloth** · October 18, 2016, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Wambat

Whether or not a general can have his weapons upgraded depends on how he is acquired. If he is recruited, promoted, adopted, etc. Which allows and which does not I do not clearly remember, but it is not something the modders can correct.

For the Tanneries and Woolmakers it sounds like a few line changes should correct the problem.

By the way, it seems that the same issue also affects the mithril armory in Ost-in-Edhil, and presumably all armor upgrades in general. Although the armory weapon bonus makes a lot more sense than the tanneries one.

**Point_Man** · March 20, 2017, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Michael11

I don't know why,but in my game,it doesn't show Noldor Swords in the barracks list.

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Rome Total War Gold\bi\fatw\data

Click export_descr_unit find Noldor swords line and change "ownership" from what ever it was to sarmatians and save. You'll get as many Noldor swords as you want!

**Highland Laddie** · October 15, 2017, 04:05 PM

A quick commentary on the Elvellyn, particularly the Wardens and Foresters.

(A quick note that I've still been playing 3.1, so it's possible this may already be addressed, and if so, then consider this validation

)

Let's talk cost. The Wardens are not a very effective line unit in terms of attacking or defending, which I normally would have no problem with, considering they're normally fighting along side Elven units, which may well be the best in the game. What I DO take issue with is their cost. Unmodified, they cost something like 1300 Mirian, and 1120 for Foresters.
This seems mighty expensive for what you get: units that are very sub-par compared to their mannish counterparts in other factions, especially other tier 3 units. Again, that's understandable, because you don't want or need the Elves to be uber as a faction, but I think it would make a bit more sense and balance a bit better if Wardens were made a bit cheaper (in the 800-1000 range), and if Foresters had either a slightly better range, and maybe give a slight tweak to Foresters to make them more desirable st that cost (maybe missle attack of 20? They're taught by Elves after all, who have a missle attack of 26).

just a few thoughts.

**Highland Laddie** · October 16, 2017, 07:36 AM

Another thing: apparently, obtaining Elvellyn Riders requires a Lord's Barracks (top tier) in addition to the Elvellyn Horsemasters building. This seems a bit strange, considering you should be able to get them with just the horse master building. Also, stat wise, they're a light horse unit not much better than any tier 1 unit of other factions, but they cost like 1200 mirian. That might need a tweak, imo.

**Wambat** · October 16, 2017, 08:42 AM

My understanding is that these choices where aesthetic, reflecting the character of the Elven faction, rather than to reflect practical optimisation.

The reality is that Elvellyn are romantics. Elves are not better combatants than Men because they train better and for longer (well, that doesn't hurt), they are better combatants because they are better physiologically than Men. In real-world terms, they are supernatural, with better perception, reaction, and speed than Men are capable of. Having a cheetah train a man in running will not make a man as fast as a cheetah.

The Elvellyn commitment to emulate a non-Mannish race, while capable of producing a workable society and military, will be sub-optimal and inefficient compared Mannish societies that are not trying to mold themselves after non-Mannish races.

**CountMRVHS** · October 16, 2017, 12:25 PM

I'm not sure if the cost or stats have changed since 3.1 for those particular units. If you're talking the recruitment costs, though, those have a relatively minor impact over the course of a campaign; upkeep costs are far more consequential. That said, the upkeep costs for those units might be higher than you'd like as well - I haven't looked at the numbers.

As for the quality of the Elvellyn, it was a design choice to keep them somewhere in the middle of effectiveness. The idea was that they would be necessary for support, but that the majority of the fighting prowess would come from the Elven units. I haven't done tests or comparisons between the Elvellyn & other Mannish troops, but the Elvellyn were not intended to be elites on the same level as the well-trained Dunedain.

Now, in 3.3 there will be a new Elvellyn unit that *does* hew a bit closer to the Dunedanic tradition: Elvellyn Retainers, armed with sword & shield. They are better armed than other Elvellyn, but can only be trained in a couple of locations: Annuminas and MA, I believe. The idea is that they are trained from a population with a stronger military tradition than the typical Men who might join the Elvenking's banner.