Feedback: Dunland

**MasterOfNone** · February 22, 2015, 04:32 PM

Hmm... that seems a little too tough. Even with a highly fortified settlement such as the Hornburg or a Dwarven stronghold, 12 siege towers used wisely and simultaneously should have resulted in some getting to the walls. Do others find this too difficult?

**caspoi** · February 22, 2015, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

I wonder why some are finding the Hornburg impossible to assault, while others are able to assault Minas Anor (at least in terms of getting towers up there)...

The AI is fairly terrible at siege assaults, so I wouldn't judge the strength of the towers based on the AI's inability to mount a successful assault. If an experienced player is finding it impossible to assault, though, that is worthy of another look.

Were you at a bad point in the walls, perhaps? (i.e., lots of tower coverage hitting your siege gear?)

It is not "impossible" for a decent player with a decent army (generally) but rather "undoable". Even when spies had opened the gates for me I lost half my (considerable) army of Adûnabâr just rushing for the gates... with the survivors being slaughtered by the company of the guard. The only way I managed to take Minas Anor was by fighting the defenders in the field (that and autoresolving). Even though the AI is awful at fighting siege battles for them it is impossible to take a settlement like Minas Arnor and simply having to sit back and watch the towers do your job is making things too easy. Even in non-citadels I had this problem as I sent three units to attack the fort on different locations, one to draw the archer fire and two to assault the walls. I naturally lost the ones who were fired upon by the enemy unit of archers as well but even the two other units were annialated simply by the enemy towers, one lost all the soldiers before it got there and the other lost three quarters of its soldiers, the last remaining quarter being defeated by said archers.

**Wambat** · February 23, 2015, 01:31 AM

Certain settlements, like Minas Anor, will be impossible for AI to take unless the battle timer is disabled, or the player is very careless. I personally have been able to take Hornburg as Dunland, and Minas Anor as Adunabar. In both cases most of the defenders had been drawn out and destroyed on the field in previous battles. The key to the capture of the walls is to exploit those areas of the walls with minimal tower coverage; look for large gaps and corner sections. To exploit those sections poorly covered by static defenses you will need to actually deploy away from them so that defenders will not station troops in those sections; and then walk your towers to the vulnerable sections after battle commences.

**webba84** · February 23, 2015, 04:37 AM

We will definitely look at the strength of towers before final release, as with most other battlemap stuff its the most WIP part of the mod at present.

**MasterOfNone** · February 23, 2015, 05:29 AM

Thanks, Wambat. It's good to know that an experienced player has a chance against them. That is as it should be. The problem then is with the AI assault. I wonder if it's possible to make things easier so that the AI has a chance, and yet still give the player a challenge...

**athanaric** · August 21, 2015, 07:37 AM

I've noticed that the Hunting Parties DB only seems to work with Open Goverment policy. This is unfortunate because if (e.g.) you conquer the Hornburg and decide to make it a commercial centre - a very logical choice for any faction (even Rohan, if you feel you don't need recruitable generals) because of the richness in trade resources, and because the top tier jewelsmiths or goldsmiths only work with Economic or Open Policy - you're in the awkward position of not being able to build any DB there (except perhaps Cultic Temple Cities, which I haven't tested because I don't play Cult).
Hence, I'd suggest making it available for the Economic building tree as well. Another good argument for that is that Dunland only gets three tiers of markets, which makes the Economic build hardly attractive (or economically viable) at all in provinces without the Livestock resource (even if you were to go Cultic).
Also included that suggestion in the summary post in the other thread.

Regarding the Hornburg, there's a very simple alternative (tested on M/M): gather a full stack (doable with your large starting armies) besiege the Hornburg ASAP, and use autoresolve

**CountMRVHS** · August 21, 2015, 09:25 AM

I thought Hunting Parties was a Financial or Open Policy SB. At least, that's what I remember being discussed. I'm sure it's not intended to only be buildable in Open Policy settlements.

**athanaric** · August 21, 2015, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by CountMRVHS

I thought Hunting Parties was a Financial or Open Policy SB. At least, that's what I remember being discussed. I'm sure it's not intended to only be buildable in Open Policy settlements.

Well, I already suspected it was an oversight. Probably just a matter of changing a line in the EDB (but I don't know how exactly). It's also unavailable in Anghal and Dunchrioch ATM, so there's definitely something off in the EDB entry.

**webba84** · August 21, 2015, 09:36 AM

A small error in EDB that I have just fixed now. Thanks for spotting that athanaric

**MasterOfNone** · August 21, 2015, 10:26 AM

Thanks, Athanaric!

**Dáin II** · November 22, 2017, 11:57 AM

Adding some feedback here. Already posted some remarks about cultic recruitment in a different thread, but after reading all this my feedback needs to be slightly adjusted and be put at the right place.

In general, Dunland is a very cool faction to play. My only concern is that turning cultic is not that attractive due to different reasons:

- the very cool and cheap native elite units. Painful to lose those. Dunlending Hillmen and Elite Pikemen are still recruitable, so the painful losses are Wolfhunters, Axes of the Wolf, Riders of the Isenmarch, and Isenmarch Guard, besides some useful foreign units such as Rohan Spear Levies and Vassal Riders.In my current campaign I prepared myself for the switch by recruiting 50 reserve units of Wolfhunters, 40 Riders of the Isenmarch, and 20 Axes of the Wolf who are just hanging around in homelands. Likely they won't be used too extensively in the future, but it's good to have them anyway

. Tribal Pikes are also disabled, but I never used them much, so that wasn't very painful.

- it won't be possible anymore to recruit the mounted bodyguard unit in Dunfreca. They just look the same as the normal bodyguard from Dunhold with a horse added, so maybe that's an argument to keep them as well. In terms of gameplay this would add value in the later game, when Dunland is large, cultic and needs to send governors to far away places.

- the option to only recruit standard orcs. Totally agree with previous writers that Dunland could have more options. I still believe that Dunlendings should be able to get Hill Trolls and Wargs. The discussion about Wargs being creatures of the east is not that relevant because Adunabar also gets them at certain places. If Dunland could recruit them at the same places, there shouldn't be a location problem, otherwise Adunabar wouldn't be able to get them. High Pass and Gladden Hold would be reasonable options for Warg recruitment in my opinion. Also the Herumor argument to give Adunabar better options in mountain strongholds is not really strong, since Dunland can get Herumor too. I have seen this happening after less than 10 turns. Warg Archers and Hill Trolls would make it much more attractive to go cultic. I would definitely not add Uruks and Ologs for Dunland though. Looking for a reasonable compromise here to improve Dunland's options while still keeping them below Adunabar's.

- there might be a price to pay for it, which is equalized through higher income though (one more level of cultic buildings = more income, but also much higher upkeep of elite troops, not sure what has the bigger impact).

And then I also have a question about fiefdoms. My current count is at 5, if I remember right. Swanfleet, Tharbad, Erindol, Vorn-Hollen, and Carn Dum. So if Carn Dum is a fiefdom, based on arguments I read above, where does it stand in comparison to outlands such as Bree or Rohan?

Besides that Carn Dum should definitely stay as it is to maintain current attractiveness of turning cultic, since it is of tremendous strategic value. I just conquered it in my current campaign and was very pleased to see that I could get Spears of the Shadow and Dunlendish Horsemen there. The Cultic Scions specialization bulding seems to work similar as the Military Assimilation from Dale. Haven't built it in fiefdoms and homelands yet, but in outlands it only enables to recruit Spears of the Shadow, the tier 3 homeland cultic unit. So I assume that Axes of the Shadow would be available in fiefdoms, Swords of the Shadow in Homelands, and Shadowriders maybe bound the the hourse resource, like many other (elite) horsemen in other factions (e.g. Elvellyn Riders, Riddermark Spears, Dragonshield Riders). I will update this once I know more.
Based on the assumptions above, I assume that I would get a quite decent cultic setup around Angmar, likely only missing Swords of the Shadow and Shadowriders in the area. Armor upgrades are also available. Much potential up there to revive Angmar already, just some Hill Trolls would be nice

. Seriously, when you have all or Arnor conquered and Herumor on the team, why would you not be able to sign some Trolls for the wars to come? Herumor whispered in my ears that he wants to conquer Dol Guldur back from the Elves to create a Cultic Temple City there, but that's gonna be difficult without those big beasts.

**CountMRVHS** · December 23, 2017, 04:15 PM

Thanks for this Dain! I agree that the native units are generally more interesting than the Cultic ones. I can't remember which version you're playing, but 3.3 introduced some broad changes with Cultic recruitment - eliminating the low-tier Cultic levy spearmen & riders - and there may also have been a few changes to Dunland's recruitment options post-conversion.

You're right about Herumor. I got him quite early in my 3.3 Dunland campaign, and he could be seen as justification for some more advanced Orkish/beast recruitment. Hill-trolls ought to be limited to the North (i.e., not Misty Mountains Hold), I think. As for Wargs, Misty Mtns Hold might seem an obvious choice (since it's near-ish, vaguely, where Wargs attacked the Fellowship on their way south), but I'd be concerned that allowing Wargs there, right on Dunland's doorstep, would be too big of a gift early on, so I'd agree that High Pass & Gladden Hold would be the sensible closest options.

Glad Carn Dum is serving a purpose! I've never made any use of that settlement myself, but I've never really captured it as a Cultic faction.

**Kroem** · February 22, 2021, 06:13 AM

Hello all, it has been a long time since I played this mod! The cultic units are really cool for Dunland, but I'm having a little issue with the settlement in the Isenmarch (Dunfreca or Dunfada? Something like that).

I have a shadow touched faction leader, governor and shadow temple built there but the official alignment remains as ways of darkness. Does anyone have any other ideas? Almost the whole population worships the cult so it is causing a lot of unrest!

**athanaric** · February 22, 2021, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kroem

Hello all, it has been a long time since I played this mod! The cultic units are really cool for Dunland, but I'm having a little issue with the settlement in the Isenmarch (Dunfreca or Dunfada? Something like that). I have a shadow touched faction leader, governor and shadow temple built there but the official alignment remains as ways of darkness. Does anyone have any other ideas? Almost the whole population worships the cult so it is causing a lot of unrest!

Have you upgraded the Shadow Cult temple to the highest possible tier (should be at least t3, maybe even t4 in that area)? Some regions require that in order to convert.